Return of Reckoning

Elemint wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:30 pm

Sorry, I got a bit off-topic regarding Bleeding Edge.
I guess my final conclusion is that for people with low weapon skill, Bleeding Edge is great for RA. For people with high weapon skill (Vanq+BL+Gen+ a few talismans or group buffs), using Bleeding Edge is probably not worth it. This is contrary to what was said earlier in this thread.

Bleeding Edge has peak value at 700 WS, or 50% arpen, since then with BE up you ignore armor and get reduced only by toughness

Thats a info!

Krima wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:56 pm

ctosterhout wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:43 am

Rumpel wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:16 am

Ah, you mean for AA?

Sorry, I got a bit off-topic regarding Bleeding Edge.
I guess my final conclusion is that for people with low weapon skill, Bleeding Edge is great for RA. For people with high weapon skill (Vanq+BL+Gen+ a few talismans or group buffs), using Bleeding Edge is probably not worth it. This is contrary to what was said earlier in this thread.

Your conclusion is very wrong. Feel free to test everything on construct mob at IC.

I value all the advice you give on here. If you can say why you think it's wrong, it would be more helpful. I want to be wrong. I want this tactic to be valuable.

I and others have tested Bleeding Edge. It increases armor penetration to exactly 50%, regardless of weapon skill.
Do you think it adds 50% of your weapon skill? It may have in the past, but it does not now.

I understand that theory crafting is different than real world, but it's obvious that Bleeding Edge only benefits people with average/low weapon skill.
If you're not spamming finishers, then Bleeding Edge is up 30-45% of the time, depending on if you're using RA or not.
If you have 550 weapon skill, around 40% armor pen, then Bleeding edge only increases your sustained damage by a maximum of 4.5% on over-armored tanks (.1[increased armor pen] * 100[overcapped armor] * .45[time active]) . It will be less on everyone else.


Without BiS or trying to stack weapon skill, average Witch Elves probably have around 20-30% penetration from weapon skill.
With 30%: .2[increased armor pen] * 100[overcapped armor] * .45[time active] = 9% damage increase (on tanks, less on others)
With 20%: .3[increased armor pen] * 100[overcapped armor] * .45[time active] = 13.5% damage increase (on tanks, less on others)

Less weapon skill = more benefit.
You don't even need 700 weapon skill to make this tactic worthless. At 550 weapon skill, several other tactics add more sustained damage.

That i was serching for. You can see mitigation when using BE. Also interesting when comparing it to piercing armor(complete armor ignore) :

https://imgur.com/a/VgeqMgS

You can find the post here:

(viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42646&p=455414#p455373)

Rumpel wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:21 am That i was serching for. You can see mitigation when using BE. Also interesting when comparing it to piercing armor(complete armor ignore) :

https://imgur.com/a/VgeqMgS

You can find the post here:

(viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42646&p=455414#p455373)

It really depends on the targets that he was attacking. He was attacking targets with average of 46% mitigation, and he bypassed half of it with Bleeding Edge to get to 23%.
We can't tell how much less damage he would have done without Bleeding Edge and we don't know his weapon skill.
He's not doing a lot more damage, unless he has low weapon skill. If he has 20% penetration from weapon skill, then he's only getting 30% more penetration (%30 of 46% armor is 13.8% more damage) from Bleeding Edge. This is great for RA with low weapon skill, but 55% of the time he's getting +0% damage from Bleeding Edge.

If your point is that RA with BE has higher damage and creates a spike, I agree with you.
But with high weapon skill, the spike is only going to be around +4.6% (10% of 46% average armor is only 4.6%). I'd rather take another tactic that gives +10-15% damage all the time.

Edit: Sorry, I just noticed PA had 14% mitigation. I guess from toughness/guard/detaunts. It's hard to wrap my mind around, but I don't think it will affect the numbers above much.

ctosterhout wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:55 am

Rumpel wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:21 am That i was serching for. You can see mitigation when using BE. Also interesting when comparing it to piercing armor(complete armor ignore) :

https://imgur.com/a/VgeqMgS

You can find the post here:

(viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42646&p=455414#p455373)

It really depends on the targets that he was attacking. He was attacking targets with average of 46% mitigation, and he bypassed half of it with Bleeding Edge to get to 23%.
We can't tell how much less damage he would have done without Bleeding Edge and we don't know his weapon skill.
He's not doing a lot more damage, unless he has low weapon skill. If he has 20% penetration from weapon skill, then he's only getting 30% more penetration (%30 of 46% armor is 13.8% more damage) from Bleeding Edge. This is great for RA with low weapon skill, but 55% of the time he's getting +0% damage from Bleeding Edge.

If your point is that RA with BE has higher damage and creates a spike, I agree with you.
But with high weapon skill, the spike is only going to be around +4.6% (10% of 46% average armor is only 4.6%). I'd rather take another tactic that gives +10-15% damage all the time.

bleeding edge adds 50% armor pen not 1.5x armor pen

Bloodmasked wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:13 am

ctosterhout wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:55 am

Rumpel wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:21 am That i was serching for. You can see mitigation when using BE. Also interesting when comparing it to piercing armor(complete armor ignore) :

https://imgur.com/a/VgeqMgS

You can find the post here:

(viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42646&p=455414#p455373)

It really depends on the targets that he was attacking. He was attacking targets with average of 46% mitigation, and he bypassed half of it with Bleeding Edge to get to 23%.
We can't tell how much less damage he would have done without Bleeding Edge and we don't know his weapon skill.
He's not doing a lot more damage, unless he has low weapon skill. If he has 20% penetration from weapon skill, then he's only getting 30% more penetration (%30 of 46% armor is 13.8% more damage) from Bleeding Edge. This is great for RA with low weapon skill, but 55% of the time he's getting +0% damage from Bleeding Edge.

If your point is that RA with BE has higher damage and creates a spike, I agree with you.
But with high weapon skill, the spike is only going to be around +4.6% (10% of 46% average armor is only 4.6%). I'd rather take another tactic that gives +10-15% damage all the time.

bleeding edge adds 50% armor pen not 1.5x armor pen

I'm not sure if you're responding to me, but I'm in total agreement with that. All of the calculations above are 50% of the person's armor. If the victim has 50% mitigation from armor, then 50% armor pen bypasses half of that, effectively leaving the person with 25% mitigation from armor.
But, you have to factor in how much weapon skill you have to determine how much benefit you're getting from BE. If you already have 40% from weapon skill, then BE is only giving you 10% more.

ctosterhout wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:24 am

Bloodmasked wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:13 am

ctosterhout wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:55 am

It really depends on the targets that he was attacking. He was attacking targets with average of 46% mitigation, and he bypassed half of it with Bleeding Edge to get to 23%.
We can't tell how much less damage he would have done without Bleeding Edge and we don't know his weapon skill.
He's not doing a lot more damage, unless he has low weapon skill. If he has 20% penetration from weapon skill, then he's only getting 30% more penetration (%30 of 46% armor is 13.8% more damage) from Bleeding Edge. This is great for RA with low weapon skill, but 55% of the time he's getting +0% damage from Bleeding Edge.

If your point is that RA with BE has higher damage and creates a spike, I agree with you.
But with high weapon skill, the spike is only going to be around +4.6% (10% of 46% average armor is only 4.6%). I'd rather take another tactic that gives +10-15% damage all the time.

bleeding edge adds 50% armor pen not 1.5x armor pen

I'm not sure if you're responding to me, but I'm in total agreement with that. All of the calculations above are 50% of the person's armor. If the victim has 50% mitigation from armor, then 50% armor pen bypasses half of that, effectively leaving the person with 25% mitigation from armor.
But, you have to factor in how much weapon skill you have to determine how much benefit you're getting from BE. If you already have 40% from weapon skill, then BE is only giving you 10% more.

BE gives you 50% armor pen not 10%

Bloodmasked wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:43 am

ctosterhout wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:24 am

Bloodmasked wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:13 am

bleeding edge adds 50% armor pen not 1.5x armor pen

I'm not sure if you're responding to me, but I'm in total agreement with that. All of the calculations above are 50% of the person's armor. If the victim has 50% mitigation from armor, then 50% armor pen bypasses half of that, effectively leaving the person with 25% mitigation from armor.
But, you have to factor in how much weapon skill you have to determine how much benefit you're getting from BE. If you already have 40% from weapon skill, then BE is only giving you 10% more.

BE gives you 50% armor pen not 10%

I'm not saying Bleeding Edge gives you 10%, I'm saying it is not additive to weapon skill. If you already have 40% armor pen from weapon skill, and you use bleeding edge, it is effectively only giving you 10% more penetration than if you didn't use it.

If you're saying that Bleeding Edge is additive with weapon skill, then it is awesome. Additive meaning if I have 40% armor pen from weapon skill, Bleeding Edge adds 50% to make it 90%. Based on my quick testing with PA, the PA buff and Bleeding Edge didn't stack. Maybe they didn't stack because they're both buffs. Please tell me this is true, and I'll love Bleeding Edge.

I will give you some numbers, that you can discuss about something with substance.

Damage on Dummy as reference: 663

Test 1: Base armor pen: 20,1 %

Damage on construct without any other buffs: 217 (445 mitigated)
Damage on construct with Bleeding Edge: 454 (208 mitigated)



Test 2: Pierce Armor WS buff increasing base armor pen to 28,3%

Damage on construct without any other buffs: 254 (406 mitigated)
Damage on construct with Bleeding Edge: 493 (169 mitigated)

Sulorie wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:00 am I will give you some numbers, that you can discuss about something with substance.

Damage on Dummy as reference: 663

Test 1: Base armor pen: 20,1 %

Damage on construct without any other buffs: 217 (445 mitigated)
Damage on construct with Bleeding Edge: 454 (208 mitigated)



Test 2: Pierce Armor WS buff increasing base armor pen to 28,3%

Damage on construct without any other buffs: 254 (406 mitigated)
Damage on construct with Bleeding Edge: 493 (169 mitigated)

Thank you.
Based on your numbers, it's obvious that PA buff and Bleeding Edge stack.
I'm curious how you ran your test, because when I did it, I saw no stacking.

For my test, I only looked at average auto attack damage.
I did 2 slices, then a puncture. Over and over again to keep the Bleeding Edge active.
For PA, I just did PA off cool down and slices until 2 frenzies, then a puncture. I saw no significant difference with PA buff.
I only did the test twice for each case. I guess I'll need to try more.