teiloh wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 6:16 pm
I don't believe I over-value -100% armor pen and a 1k heal over 5 seconds. Even on my Magus, Aegis of Orange Fire saved my ass so many times from simply being an on-demand Wounds buff/Insta heal. Mara proc is far more effective than that, especially while being healed.
Except, it's quite different and I do believe you over-value it. I had a RR100 Magus on live, and I've used both abilities for countless hours, this is not a good comparison.
An instant heal and wounds buff, is functionally nothing like a hot and EHP increase against "some damage". You can use Aegis to prevent being bursted down, on demand, with 1 button click. Monstro proc doesn't work at all like this, and requires you to hit things, get the proc off, stay in Monstro stance, and while in Monstro stance it gives an effective EHP boost (depending on of course, a variety of factors as to what that boost is). They are functionally different and serve wildly different purposes (Aegis is for temporary burst protection, Monstro proc is for being focused fired).
Regardless of Aegis, which is kind of a non-starter here. The reality is that the Monstro proc does two things:
1. It gives a 1k heal over 5 seconds. This is a decent survivability increase that is its strongest the less incoming DPS you have. Of course, this doesn't scale with DPS increases on you, so the 1k heal portion of the proc is by far the most valuable in 1v1, and as you scale up fights, it becomes less and less relevant. Sure, it's always nice to have access to an extra hot on yourself, but once we are talking about combats that start going over 6v6, it just decreases in effectiveness and relevance. You over-value this because you seem to think that being able to slap a single hot on yourself somehow increases your survivability dramatically, and frankly it doesn't except in 6v6 or less content. Go run around ORVR with someone putting a single hot on you to test and see how much longer you live in any decently sized fight, and the answer is usually "not much".
2. -Armor pen is only relevant in some cases, versus some classes. Let's be clear, it does 0 versus magical damage of any sort, it does 0 versus armor debuffs, and it does 0 versus abilities that ignore armor. So in reality, what it usually does is just negate weaponskill. Let's give a hypothetical example:
My not BIS gear mara (Warlord/Invader) has roughly 3400 armor with an 800 pot (I'm not at my PC right now). After let's say a WL armor debuff, I'm going to be around 1900 armor.
Against someone with 25% pen, without monstro proc they will roughly hit me as if I had "2550" armor undebuffed, and "1425" debuffed. So in this example, we see that what Monstro proc is actually doing is giving me roughly an extra 850 "effective" armor versus melee (undebuffed), and an extra " 475" effective armor after the debuff. So, what we can see is a few things, first of all, monstro proc scales the best when you have no armor debuffs on you, which outside of 1v1s, will never happen when people are trying to focus you down with physical damage. In reality, it's effectively netting you something around 400-600 armor (depending on your own armor) versus most people who aren't crazy stacking WS.
Now, If we look at the damage distribution of Order classes, it turns out there's realistically only a single one that can't debuff armor and deals primarily physical damage, the Slayer. Every other class deals magical damage, has an armor debuff, and/or has a semi-spammble armor ignore attack (WH).
So to be clear on the -armor pen proc:
1. It doesn't do anything against a major source of damage: magical.
2. It scales poorly with armor debuffs/armor ignores (ignore is not pen), and there's only a single Order class that can't do this self serve and still does physical damage.
3. In any even semi-organized setting, Slayers will be assiting someone with an armor debuff.
So let's say, in an environment (hypothetical), I'm taking even distribution of magical/non-magical damage 50%/50%. In that same situation, I'm using Monstro proc to up my survivability, and assuming the opponents aren't total trash and can hit their armor deubff, it's effectively giving me an extra 500 armor against non-armor ignoring attacks. Now that's not useless by any means, but that's not "amazing survivability" either. It's a small EHP boost that's not evenly distributed against incoming damage. It's again, at it's peak in specialized 1v1 combat (just like the heal proc), that scales poorly in larger environments.
500 extra armor, and a 200 hps hot, are not worth not being a competitive and damaging MDPS class. If your argument is that this is what prevents the Marauder from being a viable DPS class, than I believe most Marauders would respond with "remove monstro proc, it's not that good".
It's just not that good..... unless you are of course, a Monstro Marauder. If you are already intending to stay in Monstro stance and AoE people down, then the proc is just jelly on top of what you are already doing. But for a Brut/Sav Marauder (which was the premise here?), it's just not great at all and usually the only thing that will happen when you switch to Monstro is that you die 1-2 seconds slower. The amount of times the extra EHP from Monstro allows you to actually come out of a situation you wouldn't have died in anyway is extremely low (assuming you have to swap to it as you are getting focused, again, you can't proc Monstro while being CCed, also, 1v1 you need to proc monstro and then detaunt, as proccing it breaks your own detaunt, also, it only has a 25% chance to proc, so there's also a large chance it takes you 2-5 seconds to even get the **** thing to proc unless you are AoE spamming a clump, hardly "on-demand" when you are being focused fired.
Relying on Monstro proc to save you is like praying to god when you throw a hail mary. It's a risk and a chance and it may not even work, for a Sav/Brut Marauder, it's effectively "give up all your abilities, damage, and utility, for a chance to maybe maybe maybe not die when you probably are gonna die".
All of that being said, Pounce is far better surivavability than Monstro proc, hands down. You know what's better than a slight armor boost? Breaking all of the focus of enemy MDPS because you jumped out of a melee train to saftey.
So, you over-value the survivability of monstro proc greatly. You also under-value the survivability of Pounce greatly. Therefore, the crux of your argument in which "Maras have too much survivability to do MDPS things" but "White Lions are perfectly fine" is completely illogical and delusional, and shows a direct lack of experience with both of the classes you are discussing.
If your argument is that Marauder's have too much survivability to have good damage, then you need to look in a mirror and think about WL's for about 10 seconds.
That ALL being said. I don't want stupid buffs for the Marauder, pounce for the Marauder, nerfs to the WL, or any of this junk suggestions. That is not the point of why I respond to you. I respond to you because you are wrong and act like you are right, and it's just so painfully obvious when you don't know what you are speaking about.
Also, your takes on the Mara class in general are just so off base, it's like you have PTSD from live or something. "Everyone knows the Marauders are fine", is a blatant falsehood and lie, sorry, again you are wrong. As I was recently educated here in ROR by some of the 6v6 community, Marauder's are considered a mediocre at best class in organized 6v6 by the best players on this server, and it's basically considered to be more or less a worthless class that can't really do anything well. Most of the Mara functionality can be replaced by a BG to be frank, and their damage is just not good enough to be viable in that particular environment, now there are of course other environments and other situations where Marauders are better (city is a good example of a great environment for the Marauder, as well as the WL for that matter), but your "hot takes" on the class that you have no experience with are not worth anything.
Telioh, when it comes to the Marauder class. You have absolutely no idea what you are speaking about. That's all, your opinions are not worth anything on this subject.
If you want to keep coming into Marauder discussion threads peddling your nonsense, you will get respomses by my, every single time, telling you that you are wrong and you don't know what you are speaking about, and I can explain in great detail as to exactly why you are wrong and don't know what you are speaking about. You literally thought that TB was a 160 wounds debuff because you get your balance ideas from the career builder because you have no experience. Every time I ask you to provide more data to support your arguments, you provide nothing and go silent. If you want to keep this up, I can go as long as you can, and I can prove my points since I do know what I'm speaking about, and I probably have a few thousand more hours of experience on this subject than you do.
If you want to have OCD when it comes to Marauder balance. It's time for you to put up or shut up. Roll a Marauder, get it to at least idk, RR60? Maybe 65 or so? Then come back and talk about it after you have the slightest amount of first-hand experience. Your arm-chair balance quarterback posts are just shamelessly delusional.