Return of Reckoning

CeeJay89 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:14 pm

NSKaneda wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:52 pm If WLs are fine then mSHs are fine as well.
If mSHs are OP then WLs are OP too.

Now we can talk about nerfi... Fine tuning classes with:
- Crazy Survival
- Stupid ammount of AoE damage
- Crazy ammount of utility, non inmunity CC options
- Best Mobility in game.
- Best damging Morale in game.

Considering WL and mSH are not even remotely mirrors except they can both have pets and pounce, no, WL =/= mSH and vice versa. Stop trying to equate the two. mSH outperforms WL in any content that matters from an RvR perspective. The game isn't balanced around small-scale, where WL excels.

You talk about rvr perspective but topic is in general (and there are small scales, scenarios, city sieges in the game...). But I agree here when it comes to the fact that WL is not the mirror of mSH. But WL is just example of class which can bring this topic back to the ground ( and this is why we talked about WL here - bringing other classes here to this topic, I do not like it too in general, but this topic realy asked for it... there were no arguments, no examples, nothing, just another "pls nerf" topic). An why was WL here? Not because of the mirror of mSH (which is not), but because of the fact that all the things which matters in this topic (like mobility, utility, survivability, dmg burst...).
If the WL is so bad, why we can see so many players playing them? Does not make sense... this is no real argument I know, but there is something (true) on it.

Jinxypie wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:36 pm

teiloh wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:55 am
I played a SH (incl Melee) to 70 back when RPs were near impossible to get. They're only buffed here. You're denying that Squigs have more CC, mobility, AOE DPS and armor?

They do so what?

Bruh what

jokerspsycho wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:08 pm

NSKaneda wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:52 pm - Crazy ammount of utility, non inmunity CC options

I've seen this claimed a few times. What cc are we speaking of?

WL ability to chain stun, knock down, silence and basically disable any class (healer, mdps, rdps, bloody tanks even) long enough to burst them down qualifies as crazy amount of utility, non immunity CC option. And they can do that with mobility and crazy good amount of burst dmg negating all sorts of resistances.

mSHs are not direct mirrors, true, WAR/ROR does not have them per se. But cries to nerf mSHs started when RoR decided to rework mSH class to resemble lions. Coincidence?

just plz make sh ranged a good classe, dont change the role of the class to a mdps... sh ranged is useless every other ranged dps is way better than you, same for sw

NSKaneda wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:51 pm

jokerspsycho wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:08 pm

NSKaneda wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:52 pm - Crazy ammount of utility, non inmunity CC options

I've seen this claimed a few times. What cc are we speaking of?

WL ability to chain stun, knock down, silence and basically disable any class (healer, mdps, rdps, bloody tanks even) long enough to burst them down qualifies as crazy amount of utility, non immunity CC option. And they can do that with mobility and crazy good amount of burst dmg negating all sorts of resistances.

mSHs are not direct mirrors, true, WAR/ROR does not have them per se. But cries to nerf mSHs started when RoR decided to rework mSH class to resemble lions. Coincidence?

Kd, silence, disarm, all count towards same cc immunity so you cant do all 3. There a video of wl doing a kd into silence? I do agree they have a lot of utility tho.

aaaaw how cute, did someone got stomped by a squig? hahahaha

Przepraszam wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:48 pm From the destro perspective,the class that is clearly too strong on order side is Wl, no doubt about it

Never had a problem with WLs on any of my Destro, including the Magus. All they have is Pounce and burst, if you have any sort of damage reduction (Detaunt, Challenge, etc) you can just walk away from them and they have to retreat.

Tell you what. How about mods lock this thread. We can re-open it once WL have been nerfed to 1. not have crazy mobility, 2. not have crazy damage, and 3. not have crazy suvivability.

jokerspsycho wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:08 pm

NSKaneda wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:52 pm
- Crazy ammount of utility, non inmunity CC options

I've seen this claimed a few times. What cc are we speaking of?

MSH have the channeled Charge called "outta my way" fastest movementspeed buff in the game while you run into players they are getting a tiny knockback interrupting them briefly without applying any knockback immunity.
Kaboom is the longest AOE knockback in the gama, unmirrored and on a class with a spamable pounce.
Pounce on a class with cooldown increaser, combined with a safe self-punt plus pbaoe snare to do safe "healerline" harasment" with little risk.
Pierce defense tactic and amazing ways to apply it with aoe.
"Self"pump with groupreliance condition and strong M2+M4 morales.
And a few other cool tricks

There are ways to counter all of the Meatball tricks & tools. I just personally find the class too safe with how much tankiness it gets for free, on a class that already have selfpunt a couple of get-out-of-jail-freecards like the channel to punt players away if cornered, or the selfpunt when overextending the welcome.

Not being able to use the selfpunt while inside Squigarmor would atleast make backline diving a little more risky if it had such a restriction and give the spec a little bit more of a skillceiling compared to how ASW do some stancedancing for healdebuffing in smallscale.

Source: RR 69 or so invader geared Meatball alt

As an Order RDPS, I would definitely say I pay much more attention to/worry more about melee squigs than any other melee class. I would much rather fight any other MDPS than a squig. I'd even take fighting two WEs over a squig. At least that way I feel like I have a shot at killing one person before I die.

In terms of damage output they feel relatively similar to other MDPS, possibly slightly higher. The big issue is the extremely low or zero cooldown leap which breaks the fundamental tradeoffs/balance between melee and ranged attacks. The advantage melee enjoys is much higher damage output and burst, but at the cost of having to make it into melee range to do that. Ranged classes have lower damage, but get to enjoy increased survivability if they can maintain their distance. Melee DPS have gap closer skills to help them get into range, while ranged classes have disengages/CC to help them keep their distance and tanks have CCs to help them do so. This balance allows both classes to use their skills and counterplay each other to get the best advantage they can of their skill set.

If you look at the other skills like this in the game, you'll see that most of them have cooldowns in the 30s range:
Charge - 30 s
Juggernaut/MDPS Snare Immunity - 60 s
Pull/Fetch/Rift - 30 s
PBAoE Roots - 30 s
Shaman/AM Punt - 60 s
WH/WE/SW Self Punt - 30 s
Tank punts - 20 s
Stuns/knockdowns - 20-30 s usually
Squig Leap/Pounce - 0-10 s

This nearly or literally zero cooldown mobility removes one of the main penalties of being a melee class - namely that it might be difficult to get into melee range. It also means that gap creator skills become effectively useless and removes the counterplay present with all other class match ups, which makes it feel hopeless/frustrating to go up against. I haven't played on destro lately, but I can imagine the experience is pretty similar against WLs

IMO the leap(pounce as well) should have a higher cooldown to make it more in line with all other gap closer/creator skills in the game(ie 20-30 seconds). This would return the opportunity for counterplay against these skills and I think is a big source of the frustration/imbalance