Chosen Feedback

[Fallenkezef]

Look, in an attempt not to derail a thread any further I'll just reiterate that what I'm criticising here is not one class or one side - it's clear to everyone that KoBS/Chosen are over performing and they both affect and benefit both realms. Rather than taking that statement as a personal attack on your ability as a player, let's have a sensible discussion. A class on each side is over performing, this is not a 'nerf destro' or 'nerf order' issue, its a 'let's improve the game for the sake of everyone' thing. You've admitted yourself that they're over performing.

So taking as the start point for debate the fact that KoBS/Chosen are over performing, and accepting that once client control comes in the classes are due for an overhaul, the question is what can be done to balance them in the interim (assuming client control is as far off as generally assumed).

The two obvious options are reduce the number of auras at a time (promotes active, responsive play) or as you've suggested remove the debuff element - also viable but does nothing to change the very passive class mechanic into something more active - KoBS/Chosen will still be mandatory due to the insane stat buffs they would provide their party just by standing around.

What I'd love to see is all tanks being equally viable, opening up more options for group/WB composition. That can't happen when the impact of bringing/not bringing a KoBS/Chosen is so great.

What is the point of a knight/chosen (hereafter referred to as k/c), it's role compared to the other two tank mechanics? The k/c is the support tank, the BG/IB gets tougher and better the more you hit it, the "lineholder" tank. The SM/BO have a chain of abilities that get better as they stay in the fight, the "linebreaker" tank.

The k/c's role is party support, his job is to cover the group, provide general protection. The aoe healer of the tank world, buffs not as good as the BG/IB, offensive power not as good as the SM/BO but able to support the whole party.

Now if you look at the buffs an IB/BG can give to himself and one other player, they far exceed anything the Chosen can do in terms of str, toughnes, willpower etc and all you have to do is get hit, talk about passive play!

The issue then with the k/c is twofold:
One: perception that the class is too easy/passive. I think this is a flawed argument, you have to keep with your group, know where to position, bring those auras into play. 30ft radius is not that big in terms of a fluid battlefield. Sitting "afk on a bo" does nothing.


Second argument is one of power level, this has validity. As stat boosts go they should be one way, knights would buff (orders) group and Chosen debuff (curse) the enemy.

You could balance via a flat stat increase that does not scale with skillpoints. With no points added the buff/debuff is 75.

You have to balance the aoe buff nature of the class with the fact the other classes get better, but more direct abilities or you'll just tender k/c useless.

Another option is to remove the stat bonuses entirely but substantialy buff the others and reduce Auras to just one with a significant cooldown.

Turn the aura into sonething akin to the Paladin from Diablo 2 for example.

This is the root I'd take, change the class nature entirely from aoe buffbot to the aura supporting the class only. But that route would be the hardest to balance.

[Darosh]

Now if you look at the buffs an IB/BG can give to himself and one other player, they far exceed anything the Chosen can do in terms of str, toughnes, willpower etc and all you have to do is get hit, talk about passive play!

Every single buff needs to be applied, every single buff invokes a GCD - the only thing that doesn't invoke a GCD or costs resources is Oathfriend, and that is because IB/BG would essentially lose their ability to reasonably use their buff capabilities if it did.
You essentially do not only float guard, but also Oathfriend, apply your DPS/CC rotation and a buff rotation - with the latter you essentially have to consistently manage your UI/party like a healer would, while you take care of all tank and assist dps duties.

A KotBS/CH job can be reduced to a laughable number of keystrokes, both IB/BG require pretty much constant use of most - if not all - of their toolkit to not be dead weight/to utilize or atleast scratch their potential.

I'd suggest you play either of these class; IB/BG, before you throw them under the bus for the sake of your argument... as frankly, that just there completly undermined it.

E: Fixed a butchered sentence.

[Fallenkezef]

Now if you look at the buffs an IB/BG can give to himself and one other player, they far exceed anything the Chosen can do in terms of str, toughnes, willpower etc and all you have to do is get hit, talk about passive play!

Every single buff needs to be applied, every single buff invokes a GCD - the only thing that doesn't invoke a GCD or costs resources is Oathfriend, and that is because IB/BG would essentially lose their ability to reasonably use their buff capabilities.
You essentially do not only float guard, but also Oathfriend, apply your DPS/CC rotation and a buff rotation - with the latter you essentially have to consistently manage your UI/party like a healer would, while you take care of all tank and assist dps duties.

A KotBS/CH job can be reduced to a laughable number of keystrokes, both IB/BG require pretty much constant use of most - if not all - of their toolkit to not be dead weight/to utilize or atleast scratch their potential.

I'd suggest you play either of these class; IB/BG, before you throw them under the bus for the sake of your argument... as frankly, that just there completly undermined it.

I have played the IB it's like playing a piano. However the basic mechanic is very passive: "get hit, build up grudges"

How that is then used is complicated. Nobody is attacking the IB here mate, it's about balancing the Chosen/Knight. Everyone knows playing the IB well takes allot so don't get all defensive.

The problem here is how to balance the Chosen being the aoe Dok/WP compared to IB/BG being say the Zealot/RP

[Darosh]

I have played the IB it's like playing a piano. However the basic mechanic is very passive: "get hit, build up grudges"

How that is then used is complicated. Nobody is attacking the IB here mate, it's about balancing the Chosen/Knight. Everyone knows playing the IB well takes allot so don't get all defensive.

The problem here is how to balance the Chosen being the aoe Dok/WP compared to IB/BG being say the Zealot/RP

I am not* being defensive, I am pointing out a flaw in your logic. If you justify whatever it is that you argue in favor of by declaring BG/IB to be just as passive if not more passive of class to play than KotBS/CH... it just doesn't add up. That is all I am saying.

E: Bleh, forgot a word.

[Fallenkezef]

I have played the IB it's like playing a piano. However the basic mechanic is very passive: "get hit, build up grudges"

How that is then used is complicated. Nobody is attacking the IB here mate, it's about balancing the Chosen/Knight. Everyone knows playing the IB well takes allot so don't get all defensive.

The problem here is how to balance the Chosen being the aoe Dok/WP compared to IB/BG being say the Zealot/RP

I am being defensive, I am pointing out a flaw in your logic. If you justify whatever it is that you argue in favor of by declaring BG/IB to be just as passive if not more passive of class to play than KotBS/CH... it just doesn't add up. That is all I am saying.

You are obsessing over a throw away comment and ignoring the discussion by getting defensive over your preferred class and offering nothing to the discussion of the Knight/Chosen issue other than "My class is more dificult to play than yours".

[Dabbart]

Maybe stop tossing out "throw away comments" and actually think about what you type. You typed something, he responded to it. Don't try and bash him for not adding anything to the discussion when you still haven't retracted your comment towards AxelAF insulting his Chosen/knight knowledge cause he didn't discuss the "stamina" aura. By which you meant Toughness, and he DID discuss the toughness aura.

You keep spewing crap and bitching at others for commenting on the smell.

[Fallenkezef]

Maybe stop tossing out "throw away comments" and actually think about what you type. You typed something, he responded to it. Don't try and bash him for not adding anything to the discussion when you still haven't retracted your comment towards AxelAF insulting his Chosen/knight knowledge cause he didn't discuss the "stamina" aura. By which you meant Toughness, and he DID discuss the toughness aura.

You keep spewing crap and bitching at others for commenting on the smell.

And your balance suggestion for the chosen/knight issue is........

[Darosh]

I have played the IB it's like playing a piano. However the basic mechanic is very passive: "get hit, build up grudges"

How that is then used is complicated. Nobody is attacking the IB here mate, it's about balancing the Chosen/Knight. Everyone knows playing the IB well takes allot so don't get all defensive.

The problem here is how to balance the Chosen being the aoe Dok/WP compared to IB/BG being say the Zealot/RP

I am being defensive, I am pointing out a flaw in your logic. If you justify whatever it is that you argue in favor of by declaring BG/IB to be just as passive if not more passive of class to play than KotBS/CH... it just doesn't add up. That is all I am saying.

You are obsessing over a throw away comment and ignoring the discussion by getting defensive over your preferred class and offering nothing to the discussion of the Knight/Chosen issue other than "My class is more dificult to play than yours".

First things first, I forgot a word in the post that you quoted - it should obviously read <not>. As to me obsessing over your 'throwaway' comment:

The k/c's role is party support, his job is to cover the group, provide general protection. The aoe healer of the tank world, buffs not as good as the BG/IB, offensive power not as good as the SM/BO but able to support the whole party.

Now if you look at the buffs an IB/BG can give to himself and one other player, they far exceed anything the Chosen can do in terms of str, toughnes, willpower etc and all you have to do is get hit, talk about passive play!

The issue then with the k/c is twofold:
One: perception that the class is too easy/passive. I think this is a flawed argument , you have to keep with your group, know where to position, bring those auras into play. 30ft radius is not that big in terms of a fluid battlefield. Sitting "afk on a bo" does nothing.

You've written the above as a response to what others have written prior; e.g.: No risk involved, passive mechanic, yadayada.
You go ahead and breakdown what, in your opinion, the tanks are all about - fair game, so far.
You conclude that breakdown of the classes by saying that 'Stahp! BG/IB are just as passive.' .
You continue by saying that the issue 'most people have' (perception, yadayada) is the ease of application/passive nature of the class.

Now, clearly, as you consider BG/IB to be even more passive than the knight, that argument of your opposition is no longer relevant - 'piano play' == 30ft dumbfire auras, much positioning, much stress.

Regardless of my luv or hatred for whatever class - your logic is flawed.

Abbd.:
To throw a bone into the pit:

Maybe link the auras to guarddamge received, every <x> of damage an aura fires off for <y> seconds - the aura itself is managed as a buff and can be shattered, it is not bound to the knight itself.
Let mastery trees reduce the damage treshold that needs to be surpassed in order to fire off the aura (and increases its duration/potency).
Passive turtle tank stays passive, has to properly guardswap to activate auras, yadayada.

Pretty sure the devs already have plans for it, so w/e.

E: Words. More words.

[Fallenkezef]

I am being defensive, I am pointing out a flaw in your logic. If you justify whatever it is that you argue in favor of by declaring BG/IB to be just as passive if not more passive of class to play than KotBS/CH... it just doesn't add up. That is all I am saying.

You are obsessing over a throw away comment and ignoring the discussion by getting defensive over your preferred class and offering nothing to the discussion of the Knight/Chosen issue other than "My class is more dificult to play than yours".

First things first, I forgot a word in the post that you quoted - it should obviously read <not>. As to me obsessing over your 'throwaway' comment:

The k/c's role is party support, his job is to cover the group, provide general protection. The aoe healer of the tank world, buffs not as good as the BG/IB, offensive power not as good as the SM/BO but able to support the whole party.

Now if you look at the buffs an IB/BG can give to himself and one other player, they far exceed anything the Chosen can do in terms of str, toughnes, willpower etc and all you have to do is get hit, talk about passive play!

The issue then with the k/c is twofold:
One: perception that the class is too easy/passive. I think this is a flawed argument , you have to keep with your group, know where to position, bring those auras into play. 30ft radius is not that big in terms of a fluid battlefield. Sitting "afk on a bo" does nothing.

You've written the above as a response to what others have written prior; e.g.: No risk involved, passive mechanic, yadayada.
You go ahead and breakdown what, in your opinion, the tanks are all about - fair game, so far.
You conclude that breakdown of the classes by saying that 'Stahp! BG/IB are just as passive.' .
You continue by saying that the issue 'most people have' (perception, yadayada) is the ease of application/passiveness of the class.

Now, clearly, as you consider BG/IB to be even more passive than the knight, that argument of your opposition is no longer relevant - 'piano play' == 30ft dumbfire auras, much positioning, much stress.

Regardless of my luv or hatred for whatever class - your logic is flawed.

So how woukd you balance the knight/chosen?

[Luuca]

Only allow the aura(s) from trees wherein the Chosen/knight have 10+ points into to be used. it further defines the role of the class and advocates for varied specs within the class.

This means that, as the RR of the chosen and level of C/K increases, so do their options for auras. If they spend class spec points on an aura, they can cycle that one on as well, but limit the Auras to 2 at a time. keep the potency based upon points in that tree, and this will lessen the dominance of the classes without nerfig it into second class citizens.