Return of Reckoning

I wasn't really arguing that destro tanks are somehow op. Everyone knows knight is the best tank in the game. But WHY is it the best tank? Because it is a hybrid BO/Chosen. A tank's job is to control and utility. A knight can: 3man slow permanently (with tactic), big punt (with tactic), aura for buff/debuff, crit increasers (with tactic), AOE stagger. These are some of the core skills that make up the Chosen/BO hybrid, and why running a knight is incredibly crucial to running successful parties. The Chosen/BO still have a morale pump, however, which make the combo better overall. The other two tanks are meh except for being a WW SM bot, which is also a meh playstyle. So, no, destro tanks aren't "OP," but this is why order is lacking tanks.

Penril wrote:BWs (and Sorcs) are fine.

sorc > bw.

Haojin wrote:

Penril wrote:BWs (and Sorcs) are fine.

sorc > bw.

It always wasn't like that (on live), can you explain, please - why?

covenn wrote:Outside of liking the class or nostalgia, is there any real reason to play a BW (or Sorc for that matter?) ? The disrupt changes combined with the combustion mechanic seem like running a SW would be better in every circumstance open world or in scenarios. They do everything as good, if not better, without blowing themselves up and creating more healer load in the process.

I understand why the combustion mechanic is what it is and the need during the live game, but with the changes here, it seems like it should probably be revisited.

Bright Wizards have been obsolete in small scale fights for at least 11 months. No news there. However they still excel at killing undergeared and careless players in RVR. As long as that is still a thing you will see BWs in RVR. Just dont expect to do much against competent players.

I don't think it's fair at all to dismiss the viability of bws in 1-3-2 ranged parties

dansari wrote:Chosen and BO bring so much group utility that order has no real comparison except knight. You can even bring BG now for easy superpunts or to beef up one DPS in particular, although the power of chosen aura, BO absorb/slows, and morale pumping is better.. Order didn't really bring it upon themselves; the class makeup and class aesthetics are what drive archetype numbers.

Super punts in rvr? Meh. When you're facing 2 wbs, st punts won't do much for you, plus people are very likely to have all the immunities. Sure bg has nice st buffs and debuffs, but it's still not really a wb material tank, not to even mention lack of morale pump. I think we can all agree on that.

Bo bubble? You mean the 500 dmg over 5 seconds that you have to use on a target in melee range, and can therefore be defended? Yea no. It's a waste of a gcd and a waste of htl/chm channel time. 500 dmg is one hit from a single bw, which hit for even more really. Sw hits for over 1k easily. If you instead of that bubble used htl, you actually give a chance for your team to defend these attacks, not just mitigate a small amount of it. So I hope you can see that it's a useless ability for rvr.

Bo snare? The tactic puts it on a god damn 10s cd. It's beyond useless in rvr. Sure you can take kd for chop fasta buff that will put it on a 5s cd, and actually make it similar to kotbs snare, but you still need a tactic and an ability from high up in a tree to make it work. Not to mention you obviously won't have chop fasta up all the time, meaning you can't maintain 100% uptime, unlike kotbs ofc (that only needs one tactic which costs lousy 4 points, I don't know which kotbs wouldn't take that). I don't use the snare anymore, in any play style I do.

Saying sm is useless in wbs is simply not true. It brings double resist debuff. That alone is a reason to take it. It has a bubble that is actually worth taking. Over 700 dmg absorb, that he can cast whenever he wants. Ww is not as useless as people might think either (spammable aoes from bws). I dare to say sm is one of the tankier tanks in wbs. If you spec right, you can last very long. It has very nice tactics that stack with abilities. I play sm in wbs, so don't think I'm making all this up in my head. I'm usually among the last to die.

Sure order doesn't have morale pump on tanks. But it has morale pump on ams and bws. And since the nerf to bo snare, it's even easier to kite while you build morales. Snares from ams and kotbs, free bubbles from sm etc. Build up to bw m4, and see things melt from 100 feet. Then push in with tanks and seal the deal

To conclude, bw is far from obsolete in rvr, where you will get the majority of your kills very easily.

SilverWF wrote:

Haojin wrote:

Penril wrote:BWs (and Sorcs) are fine.

sorc > bw.

It always wasn't like that (on live), can you explain, please - why?

cause sorc has swell of gloom tactic and many spiritual attacks can be boosted by sod tactic. also, spammable ice spikes without tactic + infernal wave 80 ft makes sorc brokenly good when bombing.

on the other hand, bw is just a m2 bot for bombing and gimped st build -flashfire nerfed into ground - .

Don't troll.

the "order has no tanks" problem kinda fuels itself and i think it's more to do with other factors than their tanks being bad, which they're not

also pleasee don't think i'm just trashing on order here, many of these things are mimicked by destro but i'll get to why it's less of a problem for us

- when this server first started and it was just T1, there were dps AMs and shammies everywhere, literally everywhere. it was an absolute plague. it's not hard to imagine why, if you're in a perpetual T1 server and decide you want to twink to hell and stomp, you pick one of those two classes

- BW was also very popular due to a bug that allowed enormous range on many of their attacks. anyone who was around for the very earliest nordland events knows what i mean. they were completely trashed by /assist BW groups (destro did however heavily outnumber order at these very early events, and i was almost as impressed as i was pissed off at the fireclowns)

- the "stealthy elven archer" archetype, as far as the character and aesthetics go, is an incredibly popular one in fantasy lore. possibly the most popular. on top of SW being an awesome and really fun class, it's also overrepresented

- engi has a gun and is a very safe class and easy class to be effective as. popular choice amongst the perpetually drunk

- FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND sorc is a worse pug bomb class than BW and as such, most vets unconcerned with aesthetics chose BW over it (i do not play these classes and do not know)

- squid herder is an acquired taste, you either love greenskins or hate them

- before the ror devs starting balancing, amongst us pubbies magus was generally seen as trash alongside BG and SM

so, all of the above leads to those wanting to play ranged classes to choose order, and those wanting to play order choosing a ranged class. this leads to a snowball effect that has continued to this day - the difficulty involved in pubbing as a tank is almost completely decided by how many allied tanks you have to your left and right. lots of friends, you can go crazy, pile in and have lots of fun. as a sole IB, you're gonna be targeted, deleted and have a wholly miserable time

order has never had a good amount of tanks, and so pubbers don't roll them cause even getting out of T1 is painful. people have blamed ordo pub healers for failing to heal, but i think this is more down to people rolling ordo pub healers simply not expecting to have a good number of melee to heal and so not having that objective in mind. you can't blame them for not doing something they're not conditioned or specced to do

my only recommendation is to make IBs physically bigger. this was done on live with BOs. do not underestimate the psychological appeal that being a big smashy thing has on us dumb immature men. make IBs more popular, more IBs are played, playing other ordo tanks becomes easier, more SMs and knights are played, more ordo healers roll and spec to heal pub melee

we slowly roll that snowball back up the hill and pub rvr is slightly improved

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