Shing wrote:
Your counterargument is to be upset that you got rolled by a premade. Not very helpful. Changing a skill does not imply a buff to the class.
Except all balance discussions are made from the perspective of group play? And outside ouf group play SW is one of the best 1v1 solo classes in the game
They are made from the perspective of group play. I never implied otherwise. I was responding to someone who said they lost; therefore, SW = OP case closed. That says nothing about balancing and is hardly evidence.
Spoiler:
TenTonHammer wrote:
Additionally changing a skill to especially something as significant which affects crit chance IS a buff to the class
A buff to one of the easiest to play and execute classes in the game that already have other sources of crit boosting tools and lastly the op made refences to how steady aim would create a "6 second window" for to which you can burst down the SW and they become a free kill, except thats not the reality due to the nature of group play resulting in high TTK
Coma wrote:
sorry but.. changing a skill from useless to powerfull... and the proposed change make SA powerfull regardless of what class were to use it and regardless of the character crit/tactic combination... (the fact that SW already have access to a good bombing spec that could greatly benefit from this change only ADD to to the power of the skill but is ot what determine it being powerfull) is per definition a buff ^^'
Maybe I wasn't clear. Changing a skill does not imply a buff to the class, when done in a balanced manner. If the rewards far outweigh the risk, then that is something to adjust.
I feel it's agreed that a SA change is reasonable, but the effect it would have on aoe is a valid concern, unless the change can distinguish ST vs aoe like OP mentioned. But its one reason why I like the idea of changing the skill entirely as mentioned. I feel that could be done in a way to make ST more effective, while not overpowering the better parts of SW and still add variety. Maybe thats just me though.
Edit 1: formating
Edit 2: OP previously addressed aoe issue so I corrected my post to reflect that.
Last edited by Shing on Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Panzerkasper wrote:
It is absolutely no secret, that rdps are completly overperforming and you want to buff the best one even further?
You want proof? I suggest for once play against a well played order rdps group, or against one with a melee-SW like Kajtarn are doing it atm. Do so and then think about your proposal again. I have played against and with SW and this class lacks of nothing.
Case closed.
Your counterargument is to be upset that you got rolled by a premade. Not very helpful. Changing a skill does not imply a buff to the class.
sorry but.. changing a skill from useless to powerfull... and the proposed change make SA powerfull regardless of what class were to use it and regardless of the character crit/tactic combination... (the fact that SW already have access to a good bombing spec that could greatly benefit from this change only ADD to to the power of the skill but is ot what determine it being powerfull) is per definition a buff ^^'
so to get FACT stright...
1) SA as it is now is a useless skill
2) SW suffer lack of single target burst damage, in particular the scout mastery is mostly unused due to this and other problems (see projectile speed)
3) changins SA along the line proposed by the OP would affect not only signle target/scout build but will also GREATLY affect skirmish/AoE build that are already considered good and are looked for when it come to WB composition
those are fact... or is there someone that want to argue that Skirmish/AoE SW are a class/build that is not wanted in standard WB composition?
my own conclusion: SA need to be changed but not in the way the OP have presented
1) Yes 2) Yes 3) As i said earlier in the thread make it so it does not affect AoE and its not an issue
Spoiler:
TenTonHammer wrote:
Shing wrote:
Your counterargument is to be upset that you got rolled by a premade. Not very helpful. Changing a skill does not imply a buff to the class.
Except all balance discussions are made from the perspective of group play? And outside ouf group play SW is one of the best 1v1 solo classes in the game
Additionally changing a skill to especially something as significant which affects crit chance IS a buff to the class
A buff to one of the easiest to play and execute classes in the game that already have other sources of crit boosting tools and lastly the op made refences to how steady aim would create a "6 second window" for to which you can burst down the SW and they become a free kill, except thats not the reality due to the nature of group play resulting in high TTK
How is that not a case for group play? RDPs, Mara Pull, Mara ensare all exist and give you ample opportunity to take advantage if you pay attention and the SW is not perfectly positioned (and in which case they won't be dealing reliable damage regardless).Or you could simply Zealot Stagger the SW during the duration to negate it. There is plenty of counter play to this especially in organized group play.
In your opinion what is a fair trade off for the Risk vs Reward for Steady Aim?
To claims of "but mara", RD is a thing, also i would like to point out that once again that maras pull has clear counter play vs 2s channel and can also be just as easily potentially disrupted awhile destro relies excessively on mara m1 order and SW does have a wide assortment of its own CC tools, neither of those are a garruntted pick.
I cant give you an exact solution for your suggestion but i will oppose arguments to give SW more access to free crit when they already have bullseye and ini debuffs all so that they can blow people up like their BW's
TenTonHammer wrote:To claims of "but mara", RD is a thing, also i would like to point out that once again that maras pull has clear counter play vs 2s channel and can also be just as easily potentially disrupted awhile destro relies excessively on mara m1 order and SW does have a wide assortment of its own CC tools, neither of those are a garruntted pick.
I cant give you an exact solution for your suggestion but i will oppose arguments to give SW more access to free crit when they already have bullseye and ini debuffs all so that they can blow people up like their BW's
Then by your logic "but crit op", Crit Futile Strikes is a thing. Cool, glad we both have agreed then that this change doesn't negatively impact Destro at all.
And tell me how a class with 0 crit damage increase at all is similar to a Bw, Sorc, WL, or a Mara (who gets all the same crit bonuses AND 50% crit damage) in terms of burst.
TenTonHammer wrote:To claims of "but mara", RD is a thing, also i would like to point out that once again that maras pull has clear counter play vs 2s channel and can also be just as easily potentially disrupted awhile destro relies excessively on mara m1 order and SW does have a wide assortment of its own CC tools, neither of those are a garruntted pick.
I cant give you an exact solution for your suggestion but i will oppose arguments to give SW more access to free crit when they already have bullseye and ini debuffs all so that they can blow people up like their BW's
Then by your logic "but crit op", Crit Futile Strikes is a thing. Cool, glad we both have agreed then that this change doesn't negatively impact Destro at all.
And tell me how a class with 0 crit damage increase at all is similar to a Bw, Sorc, WL, or a Mara (who gets all the same crit bonuses AND 50% crit damage) in terms of burst.
Why don't you go ahead and compare SW crit to SH crit, and you might start to realize some things.
Edit: Also, you can't take kotbs buffs out of the equation for order classes, you should know this and stop pretending like they don't exist.
daniilpb wrote: Yeah. I really feel like SW should have auto-aoe-detaunt, speed boost and no requirements of stances for skills. Let's balance it like chess
And I wish my SH has on demand targeted aoe detaunt, armor/parry buff and access to melee skills at the press of one button, what's your point? Not sure if you have played both classes, but in most cases the stances of SW is a boon not a burden. Not to mention the stuff you give up when slotting for full kite, kinda impossible to kill anything but solos and leeching on pug fights.
Don't reply to people who don't follow the BDF rules.
Suggestion 1 is basically an irrelevant downside. With a bit of common sense about when you pop it you will remain safe the vast majority of the time. There are very few things that will hit a sw out of nowhere (witch elves and bolts of change spring to mind the former you have a bag of tricks to avoid the latter is usually proceeded by warning dots) as generally they have a good degree of sigh over the small scale fight and can see allot of what is going on.
Suggestion 2 will buff your instant casts/AA's to much the original version of the ability vastly reduced the amount of auto attacks you can get while its up. All those abilities with no build up will just get a free 50% increase in crit and even if it's "only" 25% for instants and AA's that's still probably going to be leaving you with a potential crit level that is significantly higher then is fair.
The original design of the ability was to give one or 2 guaranteed crits, where as your redesign would certainly increase that number. Given that SW already has the 2nd most crit in game (from a sustained pov after the sorc/bw archetype) and does pretty well out of the crit it has I don't think buffing their crit level further is a good idea.
Khorlar, Thorvold, Sjohgar, Anareth, Toldavf, Hartwin, Gotrin and others -_-
daniilpb wrote: Yeah. I really feel like SW should have auto-aoe-detaunt, speed boost and no requirements of stances for skills. Let's balance it like chess
And I wish my SH has on demand targeted aoe detaunt, armor/parry buff and access to melee skills at the press of one button, what's your point? Not sure if you have played both classes, but in most cases the stances of SW is a boon not a burden. Not to mention the stuff you give up when slotting for full kite, kinda impossible to kill anything but solos and leeching on pug fights.
Nice arguments. But I still feel like the only problem that SH has is that pet can die. It really frustrates sometimes. One button armor/parry buff? Yeah, it would certainly stop mara with armor/defenses debuffs (and tons of others) or witch elf or SH with armor debuff without need of switching to dead stance for 5 sec. AOE knock back also would help but...
You can lose one tactic slot for auto-detaunt but what would you give up to get speed boost and especially aoe knock back? Maybe possiblity to get both finishers w/o any limits except the range tactic?
SW is not a mara which can actually "stance dance" and use everything with the same effectiveness. In SW's case you have to spec and build for certain stance to perform effective.
daniilpb wrote: Yeah. I really feel like SW should have auto-aoe-detaunt, speed boost and no requirements of stances for skills. Let's balance it like chess
And I wish my SH has on demand targeted aoe detaunt, armor/parry buff and access to melee skills at the press of one button, what's your point? Not sure if you have played both classes, but in most cases the stances of SW is a boon not a burden. Not to mention the stuff you give up when slotting for full kite, kinda impossible to kill anything but solos and leeching on pug fights.
Nice arguments. But I still feel like the only problem that SH has is that pet can die. It really frustrates sometimes. One button armor/parry buff? Yeah, it would certainly stop mara with armor/defenses debuffs (and tons of others) or witch elf or SH with armor debuff without need of switching to dead stance for 5 sec. AOE knock back also would help but...
You can lose one tactic slot for auto-detaunt but what would you give up to get speed boost and especially aoe knock back? Maybe possiblity to get both finishers w/o any limits except the range tactic?
SW is not a mara which can actually "stance dance" and use everything with the same effectiveness. In SW's case you have to spec and build for certain stance to perform effective.
Heh, you described my exact reasoning for wanting Steady Aim to be reworked into a one shot cast time decrease instead of remaining a crit buff. More crit would still keep stance dancing as a subpar mechanic.
Right now scout isn't really a "dead" stance as you describe it as you can kind of form a rotation while kiting in it for the 4 seconds after armor debuff, thanks to the instant spells you have access to. But I definetly see your point, and I would definetly like to see improvements that makes casting festers and armor debuff more practical, while still requiring active decision making and a high level of skill to be effective when combined with Skirmish.
As for the SW vs SH part it can be argued all day long, but we are taking this way off topic. But I still firmly believe the SW crit levels are already too high, and should not be made any higher without mirroring it for SH.
