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Fun duo for two new players

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th3gatekeeper
Posts: 952

Re: Fun duo for two new players

Post#31 » Tue May 30, 2017 8:33 pm

dansari wrote:It's so beautiful, Volgo
*tear*

Gate is right SM/WL is deadly but not as indestructible as BG/DOK or IB/WP
Yes bug BG/DOK also doesnt nuke targets like a SM/WL... So its a tough call.

IB/WP and BG/DOK (Ive done them both BTW) are good "solid" comps... but they dont "WTF PWND" anyone... In RVR being 2 melee classes sucks butt! Having a WL is super appealing due to fetch and pounce - allowing you to actually catch RDPS and not get perma kited for days. Also in SCs, you can focus fire targets and nuke players. SM can run in, WODS if needed to prevent from being nuked, then WL pounces into guard range, to KD/armor debuff and burst down a healer. Then WODS and pounce out.

The skill cap is higher, but the "power/ability" of the duo is higher as well (atleast for now).

DOK was nerfed pretty hard with the Cov ICD. IB/WP is solid as well - however for RVR and 6 man "meta groups" Melee DOK and Melee WP are not "in the meta" where as SM/WL ARE meta.

So I would "rank" duos as this:
S tier: WL/SM
A tier: IB/WP and BG/DOK
B tier or below: ehh who cares. LOL.

I think the SM/WL is just too good and too versatile for all gameplay modes to pass up.
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Syzzle - Bright Wizard
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Darosh
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Posts: 1197

Re: Fun duo for two new players

Post#32 » Tue May 30, 2017 11:00 pm

Eathisword wrote:Dont listen to any of em. The best duo is double offensive tanks. Preferably IB/IB, then IB/knight or IB/SM. Cause dwarf has +1 constitution, very important. Any combo of destro tanks with BG is fine too, I just hate destro.

I submit evidence #1 : and evidence #2 (at the 1 minute mark) : I believe it is more fun because you always go all in. With tank+healer comp, there is always the kiting factor and the uncertainty of trying to ''live without winning the fight''. With 2 tanks it is clear cut as day, you win or you die.
So we completly toss sustain out of the window and do not account for player experience?

Volgo, you are you.

Aside from that you want to take into consideration the other circumstances of those fights.
You can roll over everything and everyone with everything, if your opponents don't know what they are doing.
I am not saying that you aren't an exceptionally good player - you are -, but if you had been facing <good> opposition in those 1vX/2vX fights ~ players on Teefz's/Korze's level, or people actually taking your attempts seriously and acting accordingly...
If a player of Teefz's/Korze's calibre had joined in on the 1vX/2vX fights, they would have ended them in a heartbeat - probably with atleast two of the pugs still feeding you and Mk RR, due to the massive difference in experience.

No offense intended, mate - but you shouldn't show people shinies that are, for the most part, out of reach - as in unrealistic to emulate. If not only for the edge you have with your RR.
[Abbd.: To clarify: I take issue with Mk (IB/KotBS, the proposed tank/tank), you'd been better of with other classes (archetypes) at your side.]

Now, on a related note, considering Zaauk's circumstances elaborated in his OP, I don't see how a duo without sustain would do them any good.
If you have barely time and opt for a duo without (proper) sustain, you'll end up clicking release more often than you'll be able to actually secure a kill (unless you repeatedly - consistently - happen to run into stragglers or generally terrible players), especially if you are starting up the game - without any proper gear, rr or a grip of the class you've just started to play.

Abbd.: The lack of manpower on destro atm and the herd mentaility of order add to the above, I'm not yet sure whether Zaauk has decided on a realm actually... would probably be a neat info, one could offer more specific suggestions.
Abbd.: In my opinion, sophisticated duos with proper sustain should generally be able to secure (even if only barely) 2v4 fights against players that know what they are doing. Which most certainly will not be the case with a mdps/mdps - rdps/rdps - tank/tank setup - the drain on pots will be horrendous aswell, as you'll have to pot even for the most insubstantial fights you'll find yourself in.

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Landgoat
Posts: 132

Re: Fun duo for two new players

Post#33 » Wed May 31, 2017 6:26 am

Squig Herder and Shaman with Runaway! tactic
WAAAAGH!
Shaman/ Landy - rr80
BG/ Killadelph - rr70

Daknallbomb
Posts: 1781

Re: Fun duo for two new players

Post#34 » Wed May 31, 2017 6:45 am

Landgoat wrote:Squig Herder and Shaman with Runaway! tactic
Jep that works rly fine
Tinkabell 40/41 Magus Whaagit 40/41 SH Whaagot 40/54 BO Daknallfrosch 40/72shammy

zaauk
Posts: 82

Re: Fun duo for two new players

Post#35 » Wed May 31, 2017 6:51 am

Darosh wrote:
Eathisword wrote:Dont listen to any of em. The best duo is double offensive tanks. Preferably IB/IB, then IB/knight or IB/SM. Cause dwarf has +1 constitution, very important. Any combo of destro tanks with BG is fine too, I just hate destro.

I submit evidence #1 : and evidence #2 (at the 1 minute mark) : I believe it is more fun because you always go all in. With tank+healer comp, there is always the kiting factor and the uncertainty of trying to ''live without winning the fight''. With 2 tanks it is clear cut as day, you win or you die.
So we completly toss sustain out of the window and do not account for player experience?

Volgo, you are you.

Aside from that you want to take into consideration the other circumstances of those fights.
You can roll over everything and everyone with everything, if your opponents don't know what they are doing.
I am not saying that you aren't an exceptionally good player - you are -, but if you had been facing <good> opposition in those 1vX/2vX fights ~ players on Teefz's/Korze's level, or people actually taking your attempts seriously and acting accordingly...
If a player of Teefz's/Korze's calibre had joined in on the 1vX/2vX fights, they would have ended them in a heartbeat - probably with atleast two of the pugs still feeding you and Mk RR, due to the massive difference in experience.

No offense intended, mate - but you shouldn't show people shinies that are, for the most part, out of reach - as in unrealistic to emulate. If not only for the edge you have with your RR.
[Abbd.: To clarify: I take issue with Mk (IB/KotBS, the proposed tank/tank), you'd been better of with other classes (archetypes) at your side.]

Now, on a related note, considering Zaauk's circumstances elaborated in his OP, I don't see how a duo without sustain would do them any good.
If you have barely time and opt for a duo without (proper) sustain, you'll end up clicking release more often than you'll be able to actually secure a kill (unless you repeatedly - consistently - happen to run into stragglers or generally terrible players), especially if you are starting up the game - without any proper gear, rr or a grip of the class you've just started to play.

Abbd.: The lack of manpower on destro atm and the herd mentaility of order add to the above, I'm not yet sure whether Zaauk has decided on a realm actually... would probably be a neat info, one could offer more specific suggestions.
Abbd.: In my opinion, sophisticated duos with proper sustain should generally be able to secure (even if only barely) 2v4 fights against players that know what they are doing. Which most certainly will not be the case with a mdps/mdps - rdps/rdps - tank/tank setup - the drain on pots will be horrendous aswell, as you'll have to pot even for the most insubstantial fights you'll find yourself in.
I tried some Destro classes, found out mdps i had to click rezz to much while my mate was out. (Found out i had to roam some solo since i play more).

Tried melee DoK, won some 1vX in open pvp. But as soon i went in to scenarios i never had guard and got insta killed.
Seems like they really need a guard to work at all. Became a bit frustrating.

Also tried marauder some, felt ok but a bit frustrating in the rdps meta in lower tiers. Had some good fights in open pvp,
very good in the small fights or 1v1 the few i had.

Rolled a IB, got tempted when i saw the self heal + armor debuff, was a fun run. Didnt die alot. But....destro is destro kinda like them more :P I have to keep testing =)

I understood the meta is Rdps. So i might try a WE later to counter it :)

Thanks again for a good read, really really helpfull. Im look forward to next time i get to logg on and try more =)
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: Zauk BO // Zauuk Choppa // Zaauuk SHM // Zniggle SH :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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th3gatekeeper
Posts: 952

Re: Fun duo for two new players

Post#36 » Wed May 31, 2017 12:57 pm

zaauk wrote:
Spoiler:
Darosh wrote:
Eathisword wrote:Dont listen to any of em. The best duo is double offensive tanks. Preferably IB/IB, then IB/knight or IB/SM. Cause dwarf has +1 constitution, very important. Any combo of destro tanks with BG is fine too, I just hate destro.

I submit evidence #1 :
Click here to watch on YouTube

and evidence #2 (at the 1 minute mark) :
Click here to watch on YouTube

I believe it is more fun because you always go all in. With tank+healer comp, there is always the kiting factor and the uncertainty of trying to ''live without winning the fight''. With 2 tanks it is clear cut as day, you win or you die.
So we completly toss sustain out of the window and do not account for player experience?

Volgo, you are you.

Aside from that you want to take into consideration the other circumstances of those fights.
You can roll over everything and everyone with everything, if your opponents don't know what they are doing.
I am not saying that you aren't an exceptionally good player - you are -, but if you had been facing <good> opposition in those 1vX/2vX fights ~ players on Teefz's/Korze's level, or people actually taking your attempts seriously and acting accordingly...
If a player of Teefz's/Korze's calibre had joined in on the 1vX/2vX fights, they would have ended them in a heartbeat - probably with atleast two of the pugs still feeding you and Mk RR, due to the massive difference in experience.

No offense intended, mate - but you shouldn't show people shinies that are, for the most part, out of reach - as in unrealistic to emulate. If not only for the edge you have with your RR.
[Abbd.: To clarify: I take issue with Mk (IB/KotBS, the proposed tank/tank), you'd been better of with other classes (archetypes) at your side.]

Now, on a related note, considering Zaauk's circumstances elaborated in his OP, I don't see how a duo without sustain would do them any good.
If you have barely time and opt for a duo without (proper) sustain, you'll end up clicking release more often than you'll be able to actually secure a kill (unless you repeatedly - consistently - happen to run into stragglers or generally terrible players), especially if you are starting up the game - without any proper gear, rr or a grip of the class you've just started to play.

Abbd.: The lack of manpower on destro atm and the herd mentaility of order add to the above, I'm not yet sure whether Zaauk has decided on a realm actually... would probably be a neat info, one could offer more specific suggestions.
Abbd.: In my opinion, sophisticated duos with proper sustain should generally be able to secure (even if only barely) 2v4 fights against players that know what they are doing. Which most certainly will not be the case with a mdps/mdps - rdps/rdps - tank/tank setup - the drain on pots will be horrendous aswell, as you'll have to pot even for the most insubstantial fights you'll find yourself in.
I tried some Destro classes, found out mdps i had to click rezz to much while my mate was out. (Found out i had to roam some solo since i play more).

Tried melee DoK, won some 1vX in open pvp. But as soon i went in to scenarios i never had guard and got insta killed.
Seems like they really need a guard to work at all. Became a bit frustrating.

Also tried marauder some, felt ok but a bit frustrating in the rdps meta in lower tiers. Had some good fights in open pvp,
very good in the small fights or 1v1 the few i had.

Rolled a IB, got tempted when i saw the self heal + armor debuff, was a fun run. Didnt die alot. But....destro is destro kinda like them more :P I have to keep testing =)

I understood the meta is Rdps. So i might try a WE later to counter it :)

Thanks again for a good read, really really helpfull. Im look forward to next time i get to logg on and try more =)
[/quote]

Melee Dok works better if your stacking armor talis, disrupt, and using cleansing winds. Same with solo mdps. That's why you feel that way. I see melee doks play solo all the time who don't get blown up.

Tanks naturally do a little better since nobody wants to attack tanks in general. However you need to focus guard if your actually gonna do that otherwise your just wasting a space in SCs acting like an MDPS without being one...
Last edited by th3gatekeeper on Wed May 31, 2017 9:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Sulfuras - Knight
Viskag - Chosen
Ashkandi - Swordmaster
Syzzle - Bright Wizard
Curz - Marauder
Andrithil - Blackguard

zaauk
Posts: 82

Re: Fun duo for two new players

Post#37 » Wed May 31, 2017 1:06 pm

Ahh ok i try spec that DoK in to the abilitys you say and try it again. Hes lvl 30 so can mixture some. Dubble weekend did alot on the levels :D

My DoK name is Zaul, if anyone want to hit some SCs feel free to message!

The IB became level 7 only so didnt get guard yet. I would use it if i had it. I agree whats the point to be tank otherwise. I was just happy to live long lol.
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: Zauk BO // Zauuk Choppa // Zaauuk SHM // Zniggle SH :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: Fun duo for two new players

Post#38 » Wed May 31, 2017 1:20 pm

As good as sm/wl is for offensive purposes (the best), you lack heals. You rely purely on killpower, and if you're cc'd/punted, gg.

Dps ib and a defensive grace wp can stay up crazy-long. Get the hd and you're set. Can easily dispose of bad groups if you get cw/good pots, too. Even better if IB has sub 2h/25% parry skill. Most people will try to focus the WP, allowing IB to put out the hurt.
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Eathisword
Posts: 808

Re: Fun duo for two new players

Post#39 » Wed May 31, 2017 6:26 pm

Darosh wrote:
Spoiler:
Eathisword wrote:Dont listen to any of em. The best duo is double offensive tanks. Preferably IB/IB, then IB/knight or IB/SM. Cause dwarf has +1 constitution, very important. Any combo of destro tanks with BG is fine too, I just hate destro.



I believe it is more fun because you always go all in. With tank+healer comp, there is always the kiting factor and the uncertainty of trying to ''live without winning the fight''. With 2 tanks it is clear cut as day, you win or you die.
So we completly toss sustain out of the window and do not account for player experience?

Volgo, you are you.

Aside from that you want to take into consideration the other circumstances of those fights.
You can roll over everything and everyone with everything, if your opponents don't know what they are doing.
I am not saying that you aren't an exceptionally good player - you are -, but if you had been facing <good> opposition in those 1vX/2vX fights ~ players on Teefz's/Korze's level, or people actually taking your attempts seriously and acting accordingly...
If a player of Teefz's/Korze's calibre had joined in on the 1vX/2vX fights, they would have ended them in a heartbeat - probably with atleast two of the pugs still feeding you and Mk RR, due to the massive difference in experience.

No offense intended, mate - but you shouldn't show people shinies that are, for the most part, out of reach - as in unrealistic to emulate. If not only for the edge you have with your RR.
[Abbd.: To clarify: I take issue with Mk (IB/KotBS, the proposed tank/tank), you'd been better of with other classes (archetypes) at your side.]
I am not discouting player experience at all. mDok and mWP are very freaking hard to play.

Then, you take the xample to the other extreme... fight Teefz ands Korze... as ''good players?'' ... they are the best 2 range dps in the game (arguably Jurki could be there too). And then again... I did fight them (beat Korze, jurki and lost to Teefz... spoiler : its on youtube). Against the very bestest, 1v1 is the max you can achieve on ANY class, any combo anyway. It is pointless in the choice of your class to think about how many players of equal skill you can beat, as the answer is always 1 or 0. Whenever you solo/duo and you kill more than 1 solo/2 duo, you are fighting people with less skill than you (or crazy freakingly undergeared level 37).

Henceforth, no amount of WP/tank or WL/SM will let you beat a good group of more than 2. I'd go even further : any good healer with a tank you cannot kill as a duo. Period.

So in my mind, of course we are talking about beating bads when we plan on going solo or duo. The choice you get is what kind of playstyle you want. I am pointing out that 2 tanks is a viable option and it is more fun imo than healer+tank combo, which i played also a lot (staret it at around 1m45, 2v8 IB/WP )
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GodlessCrom
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Posts: 1297

Re: Fun duo for two new players

Post#40 » Wed May 31, 2017 6:45 pm

Eathisword wrote:
Darosh wrote:
Spoiler:
Eathisword wrote:Dont listen to any of em. The best duo is double offensive tanks. Preferably IB/IB, then IB/knight or IB/SM. Cause dwarf has +1 constitution, very important. Any combo of destro tanks with BG is fine too, I just hate destro.



I believe it is more fun because you always go all in. With tank+healer comp, there is always the kiting factor and the uncertainty of trying to ''live without winning the fight''. With 2 tanks it is clear cut as day, you win or you die.
So we completly toss sustain out of the window and do not account for player experience?

Volgo, you are you.

Aside from that you want to take into consideration the other circumstances of those fights.
You can roll over everything and everyone with everything, if your opponents don't know what they are doing.
I am not saying that you aren't an exceptionally good player - you are -, but if you had been facing <good> opposition in those 1vX/2vX fights ~ players on Teefz's/Korze's level, or people actually taking your attempts seriously and acting accordingly...
If a player of Teefz's/Korze's calibre had joined in on the 1vX/2vX fights, they would have ended them in a heartbeat - probably with atleast two of the pugs still feeding you and Mk RR, due to the massive difference in experience.

No offense intended, mate - but you shouldn't show people shinies that are, for the most part, out of reach - as in unrealistic to emulate. If not only for the edge you have with your RR.
[Abbd.: To clarify: I take issue with Mk (IB/KotBS, the proposed tank/tank), you'd been better of with other classes (archetypes) at your side.]
Spoiler:
I am not discouting player experience at all. mDok and mWP are very freaking hard to play.

Then, you take the xample to the other extreme... fight Teefz ands Korze... as ''good players?'' ... they are the best 2 range dps in the game (arguably Jurki could be there too). And then again... I did fight them (beat Korze, jurki and lost to Teefz... spoiler : its on youtube). Against the very bestest, 1v1 is the max you can achieve on ANY class, any combo anyway. It is pointless in the choice of your class to think about how many players of equal skill you can beat, as the answer is always 1 or 0. Whenever you solo/duo and you kill more than 1 solo/2 duo, you are fighting people with less skill than you (or crazy freakingly undergeared level 37).

Henceforth, no amount of WP/tank or WL/SM will let you beat a good group of more than 2. I'd go even further : any good healer with a tank you cannot kill as a duo. Period.

So in my mind, of course we are talking about beating bads when we plan on going solo or duo. The choice you get is what kind of playstyle you want. I am pointing out that 2 tanks is a viable option and it is more fun imo than healer+tank combo, which i played also a lot (staret it at around 1m45, 2v8 IB/WP )
I agree with Volgo. Of course against good players, you will falter as a duo. There are only two of you after all, and most duos are gonna be melee-centric other than shaman/squig, so you can always get kited by anyone halfway competent anyways. Mkatew and Volgo are exceptional players with high RR and good gear/talis, but in all honesty, WAR just isn't the hardest game around (harder than most other MMOs out there, I think, but it's not like we're playing DOTA here) and you can get good results just by having pots, defensive RR spec, and basic comms.
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