Fast Leveling

[Crust]

@ Darosh: I dont know how the renown calculations work in sc's but i find that even when we lose a pug i frequently gain more renown/xp then the winning side...
Its true this doesnt happen all the time (especially since the switch to destro - order go for BO's, destro do this way less in pugs from T1/2/3 perspective and tend to fan out often) but roaming T1 orvr did not net me alot of RP/xp at all from my experience, an hour of orvr with plenty of action came close to winning 1 sc.

[Darosh]

Spoiler:

As mentioned in some posts above, many players are just leveling their characters alone on PvE side in a little spot against a champion mob, during more 40 hours per month or in three days for those who can...
Probably, their is more than 50 players online every day, leveling like that in their little corner, not playing... It's sad for a mmo... And the RvR is empty... And when the RvR/PvP players log on, they just disconnect because of the emptyness of the RvR.

Now imagine, what would give a good reason to those players to come leveling their characters on the RvR lake ?

-Make more xp/rr gain on RvR ?
-Make the RvR objectives more attractives for solo players in term of leveling xp/rr ?
-Make the keep attack for the low Tiers more possible for a little group ? (on the live server, a single man was able to attack the keep door, take the keep flag and the zone announce or Tier was pushing all the players arround, on the RvR)
-Reduce the xp gain on the PvE side ? (little taunt for the PvE boy)

Because if you start to attract one players on the RvR, some will come and the battle will begins. But the mechanics must accept less players to drive the outcome of the RvR.
In my own work, this is not possible to say to one or two clients : "no, we can't go, because the boat is not full of passengers", If you do that, you will lose all your future clients. It's the same about many profession/service. A supermarket at nine for the morning, can't say no we can't open the door because there is not enough clients at the front door.
This is the same problem here, curently the RvR T2, T3 is not open because there is not enough players for the battle begins; And all the day at every hours, one or two players log on and finaly log out in the minute.
The RvR should be more open and working for all, less or more players. Or is dead.

If you have more suggestion ?

Well, one has to take into account the state of this project.
Alot of suggestions won't be possible without access to the client and proper unterstanding of how all parts of the game are assembled, besides that you are looking at two vastly diffrent timeslots.

I'd, too, vouch for system like you are hinting at, however it shouldn't be a blanket change:
Toggle off some of the RvR mechanics if the pop is too low to properly play the objectives or move the campaign to the T2 zones, as they are generally smaller in scale and do not have outer walls on the keeps.
Additionally up the experience a little in the lakes during those times of the day - however, I'd leave the PvE xp gain untouched as you cannot, even with the most sophisticated measures, gurantee that people opt for the lakes.

If you were to apply blanket changes to the system, you'd potentially see people abusing them in various ways; you'd potentially encourage xrealm-dodging and zonetrades.

Generally incentivising(/forcing) people to group/guild up would do alot to help people level up, and give them reason and opportunity to step into - and enjoy - RvR in all its glory, among other things ~ as I've elaborated earlier on (its my schtick, my apologies).[/quote]

Abbd.:

@ Darosh: I dont know how the renown calculations work in sc's but i find that even when we lose a pug i frequently gain more renown/xp then the winning side...
Its true this doesnt happen all the time (especially since the switch to destro - order go for BO's, destro do this way less in pugs from T1/2/3 perspective and tend to fan out often) but roaming T1 orvr did not net me alot of RP/xp at all from my experience, an hour of orvr with plenty of action came close to winning 1 sc.

I assume you are not referring to SCs played during the 2x event?

Your rr/xp gain in scenarios is based on the level and RR of your opponents and your level and RR respectively, your personal contribution to kills (deathblow/assist), the kind of kill (solo/grp) and the scenario score you manage to achieve - with a bonus if you win the scenario.

If you happen to join a scenario being on the lower end of the level spectrum, whilst facing opponents higher up on the level spectrum of your respective tier, you will likely see better returns in RR per kill than you would if you joined in being on par with your opponents in terms of level and RR - you are basicly playing within an AAO-esque environment.

You would however gain (alot) more RR in the lakes if you managed to kill as many enemies in the same timespan - scenarios grant you an advantage in terms of kills/min if you pug (over pugging in RvR; confined and 'controlled' environment > chaotic zergfest, for everything 6>), that is if you happen to dodge the lopsided ones.

To achieve as many kills in the lakes you invetiably need a group ~ if you have proper group and manage to jump on the tails of zergs or otherwise bait pugs along - and especially if you happen to play during AAO - you'd see an (exponentially) higher return in RR, that will make any non-2x-event-bolstered scenario gain pale in comparison.

Back on live you'd basiclly bring your groups to zones with AAO and kill stragglers, bait pugs, jump zerg tails and grind your way towards RR100 in about 1/3 the time you'd have had to grind playing in zones without AAO, and moreso about a million times faster than with any kind of pugging (/any other format).

Abbd.: Don't neglect the RR you gain for BO/zone flips and the bonus you gain to those if you with benefit from AAO.

E: Words and stuff.

[Acidic]

TLDR: Make an effort towards getting what you want; spent time playing instead of complaining.

Gotcha - 10/10.

Spoil sport, and there was me thinking whining on forum was part of the game

[Foltestik]

hmm many players wanna play with friends with all skills, as fast as posible. Not solo farming mobs or playing with/in pugs wbs and zerging semi empty T2/T3

[Darosh]

TLDR: Make an effort towards getting what you want; spent time playing instead of complaining.

Gotcha - 10/10.

Spoil sport, and there was me thinking whining on forum was part of the game

It was back on live, and a quite effective method of getting things.

[flintboth]

@Darosh, don't forget when a player log on to Warhammer Online he is joining a Realm, is your first group, guild.
When you are on the RvR you are not alone, you are in a Realm with some others Realm mates and you have some big interactions, complementary skills...
Why this is not the first source of xp to level up your characters ? Be on the RvR playing with your Realm mates, it's an organisation like other organisation.

Realm is and must be > warbands > groups > guilds

So a players who come on the RvR lake is not out of a group, out of a guild, he is in a Realm, Realm > at all;
You can heal him, protect him, buff him and if all go fine you can invit him in a group and next time in your guild...
Invit him in a guild first, you drive it out of the Realm he have choose, he don't know you, he don't know what your guild is doing on the RvR lake, just killing or playing the RvR game...

If you force the steps, many players will leave, new comers first, without new bloods you are a poor lonly famished vampire, without new blood there is no war, no battle, there is only dead.

The first step of the organisation is when a player use the button "play" on the launcher, he is joining a "Realm", if he is doing that, that mean he is ok to come play in an organisation game; The groups, the guilds are the next step of the organisation and they take place on the next Tiers (T3,T4).
The second step is to let players come into the RvR lake, give them a good reason to come inside than go leveling on the PvE.

Let the time to the new players to learn to play the RvR of Warhammer on the T1, T2, with some basic rules and simple mechanics.
The "one door keep", the "battle objectives" easy to take, all must be more simple than what is going on the T4, because it's important in a game to "discover" by yourself with some others news players than to be "guided", "forced", or that break the game approach, the magic why we log on.
If the step is too high, if it is drived too hard, forced, no one can or want to up to the next step.

Give us today the state of the guilds, they are all empty most of the time and this after one year of forced mechanics as you say, forced the players for some reasons in some way.
There are always some bad players to cheat as much they can but there are some good players to play the game as it should be.
You give to the bad players a good reasons to stay and you give to the good players a good reason to leave.
"Forced" in a game, this is coming no game and this is not attractive, this is punishing the game first and all the players if they stay...
In past on live servers, players was joining a Group, a WarBand, a Guild more than today and they was not forced, really not and there was a subscription.

[Darosh]

Spoiler:

@Darosh, don't forget when a player log on to Warhammer Online he is joining a Realm, is your first group, guild.
When you are on the RvR you are not alone, you are in a Realm with some others Realm mates and you have some big interactions, complementary skills...
Why this is not the first source of xp to level up your characters ? Be on the RvR playing with your Realm mates, it's an organisation like other organisation.

Realm is and must be > warbands > groups > guilds

So a players who come on the RvR lake is not out of a group, out of a guild, he is in a Realm, Realm > at all;
You can heal him, protect him, buff him and if all go fine you can invit him in a group and next time in your guild...
Invit him in a guild first, you drive it out of the Realm he have choose, he don't know you, he don't know what your guild is doing on the RvR lake, just killing or playing the RvR game...

If you force the steps, many players will leave, new comers first, without new bloods you are a poor lonly famished vampire, without new blood there is no war, no battle, there is only dead.

The first step of the organisation is when a player use the button "play" on the launcher, he is joining a "Realm", if he is doing that, that mean he is ok to come play in an organisation game; The groups, the guilds are the next step of the organisation and they take place on the next Tiers (T3,T4).
The second step is to let players come into the RvR lake, give them a good reason to come inside than go leveling on the PvE.

Let the time to the new players to learn to play the RvR of Warhammer on the T1, T2, with some basic rules and simple mechanics.
The "one door keep", the "battle objectives" easy to take, all must be more simple than what is going on the T4, because it's important in a game to "discover" by yourself with some others news players than to be "guided", "forced", or that break the game approach, the magic why we log on.
If the step is too high, if it is drived too hard, forced, no one can or want to up to the next step.

Give us today the state of the guilds, they are all empty most of the time and this after one year of forced mechanics as you say, forced the players for some reasons in some way.
There are always some bad players to cheat as much they can but there are some good players to play the game as it should be.
You give to the bad players a good reasons to stay and you give to the good players a good reason to leave.
"Forced" in a game, this is coming no game and this is not attractive, this is punishing the game first and all the players if they stay...
In past on live servers, players was joining a Group, a WarBand, a Guild more than today and they was not forced, really not and there was a subscription.

I guess you've missunterstood me, I generally do absolutely agree with your sentiment.
However witnessing what happened back when the live servers were up and running, moreso seeing it repeat itself - what the majority of players on this server is up to...

I for one, don't see most of them stick around either way as they are getting burned out shortly after they hit t4 and run up against premades or just about any level coordination, over and over again, whilst yet refusing to drop the lonewolf/pug attitude and do just as you say: Play the game the way it is meant to be played and embrace its community and social aspect.

Having new players join guilds/groups from the get go; in T1, would greatly help those very players to find their way into the game, especially considering that some of the ingame framework this server provides is, given the server's nature, very misleading for players that more often than not to expect to get what they see, leading them to go by:
Insufferable - at times utterly broken (description, markers, npcs, makeshift workarounds not readily apparent) - PvE quests or PQs the very moment they enter the game and leave their respective starting area; lakes devoid of players, as the population either logged off (to their mains, or the other realm) or is otherwise nonexistant due to timeslot/grossly zerged zones without any resemblance of guidance or structure; littered chats with terrible stock configuration and consider the game not worthwhile.
If they still stick around they will generally tend to rather quickly complain about balance; either class or population, if they manage to play some RvR or SCs - and if its not balance, its xp/rr gain.

About 80% of these bad first impressions can be alleviated with a little heads up and assistance from the community; guilds and groups - old players making an active effort to develop the community by sticking around T1 every once in a while picking up new players and teaching them the ropes; the <very basics>, would arguably be the best solution. Better than any incentive/application force could ever be.
And I am fully aware, that my proposal to apply force of sorts to get new players into groups/guilds asap is equally as utopian as it is draconian and would very likely, as you have pointed out, backfire - however the lonewolf/pug attitude should be actively worked against before the players in question even get close to t4, because that, again, is where the burnout will invetiably kick in, if the pugging is continued.

Maybe something like a serverside-ish guild that players become part of the very moment they create their characters, just like back on live, could be a feasible solution - especially in addition with the reintroduction of the "Advisor" tag, and some way to read the /g chat of that serverside-ish guild whilst being tagged as one, it might do wonders.
It'd pretty much equate to a makeshift lfg tool/seperate - and with that non-littered - advice chat that new players might be a lot more comfortable with and keen on using, if they happen to be too shy to ask questions out of fear they could potentially out themselves as "newbies" to same epeen-acrobat (yes, that is actually a thing, especially among those that consider pugging and 1v1s viable and sensible in a game with a framework like WAR's; its the epeen circus acts most player pick up in new MMOs that have them struggle to get into games like WAR - aside from that, some player might be just absolutely new to MMOs and potentially feel intimidated by schticks that are considered common and casual among "vets" of the genre/the allmighty interwebz/memewars).
Once players hit a certain level they could be automatically kicked out of that guild, by then they should - hopefully - have established some ties with other players and don't need as much gentle pushs towards the "right" direction.

And just for clarification's sake:
I don't mean to push players towards any kind of "competitive" play, but towards the very same thing you emphasize - general social interaction in the most basic of forms.
To have barely anyone ever respond to calls within a pug warband in t2/t3 or see groups - whose members for the most part do not even acknowledge each others existence - disband because of the very first wipe, are the most saddening and disappointing experiences ~ atleast for me that is.

TLDR:
If people get used to this kind of mutist-quickjoin-esque modus operandi/aren't made to unterstand just how shallow of a game WAR turns into once you are on the receiving end of **** matchmaking - by virtue of pugging - or otherwise premade-curbstomping and <perceived> balance issues, things generally tend to fall apart rather quickly.

Abbd.:
I am refering to <completly> new players - whoever played on live and still sticks to a pug schtick cannot be helped, or has so little time available to him that hes (kind of) excused (...he'd still be better off grouping).
The latter will take what he gets and run with it, or make a decision that suits his circumstances - and most certainly not spend his time riling up people ingame or on the forums.
Abbd.:
Lestis; the Bitterstone's, communtiy driven events are the most aweasome way to get players to engage with the community and the game - its mechanics and inner workings. Community development should be - you guessed it - a community effort.

E:Words and stuff.

[Crust]

As a newly started player that went from order T2 to destro - also barely in T2 i find it tedious to have to grind solo all the way.
Most guild require ALOT, you have to be 40 have to have addon X Y Z, have to use TS or VOX or whatever and have to be on X times a week with set times for obligatory Warbands.
I understand the purpose and benefits just fine, but that isnt playing a game anymore, its a second job, a grind to a goal that might not even be satisfactory.

I would love to join a destro guild that is semi serious on the PVP but allows lowbies to join and helps them out, rather then me shouting all night (when i do get to play) if someone wants to team up with a shammy for sc's/pq's with no real premade benefit (TS, skype etc).

An autobalance pop system is wishful thinking (on order there are way more folks active in the lower tiers when i play, both EU and NA times, my RP was 22 by the time i hit 12 on shammy) but a mandatory guild selection would be nice, even if you dont want to partake in its activities, its a choice one can make.
The other end of the spectrum now is me not being able to join a guild of my liking because requirements are not met yet or may never be (obligatory WB up to 4 times on weekdays for example) so i play solo and in weekends i team up with my buddy who is also limited in time and on a different continent.

Chances are we will stop playing a game we really loved before because we either join an unfocussed guild where there is little to no organisation or remain playing solo/duo untill we hit the T4 wall where it is 'required' to run in packs. (use common sense when interpreting this)

Sorry as this is going off topic but the point isnt sortoff, leveling fast on shammy is only possible with a team i reckon. I get fried on grinding PQ's solo mostly and doing sc's solo and i will not join a guild who's bigger picture i do not support for the sake of POSSIBLY not having to level solo.

PS: lvl 18 shammy LF destro guild that runs premade sc's and warbands, hell...even dungeons and has 10+ active members online across the timezones i had my sights set on 1 single guild but do not meet requirements yet, maybe not ever.

PPS: Darosh you make some excellent points sir

[Darosh]

As a newly started player that went from order T2 to destro - also barely in T2 i find it tedious to have to grind solo all the way.
Most guild require ALOT, you have to be 40 have to have addon X Y Z, have to use TS or VOX or whatever and have to be on X times a week with set times for obligatory Warbands.
I understand the purpose and benefits just fine, but that isnt playing a game anymore, its a second job, a grind to a goal that might not even be satisfactory.

I would love to join a destro guild that is semi serious on the PVP but allows lowbies to join and helps them out, rather then me shouting all night (when i do get to play) if someone wants to team up with a shammy for sc's/pq's with no real premade benefit (TS, skype etc).

An autobalance pop system is wishful thinking (on order there are way more folks active in the lower tiers when i play, both EU and NA times, my RP was 22 by the time i hit 12 on shammy) but a mandatory guild selection would be nice, even if you dont want to partake in its activities, its a choice one can make.
The other end of the spectrum now is me not being able to join a guild of my liking because requirements are not met yet or may never be (obligatory WB up to 4 times on weekdays for example) so i play solo and in weekends i team up with my buddy who is also limited in time and on a different continent.

Chances are we will stop playing a game we really loved before because we either join an unfocussed guild where there is little to no organisation or remain playing solo/duo untill we hit the T4 wall where it is 'required' to run in packs. (use common sense when interpreting this)

Sorry as this is going off topic but the point isnt sortoff, leveling fast on shammy is only possible with a team i reckon. I get fried on grinding PQ's solo mostly and doing sc's solo and i will not join a guild who's bigger picture i do not support for the sake of POSSIBLY not having to level solo.

PS: lvl 18 shammy LF destro guild that runs premade sc's and warbands, hell...even dungeons and has 10+ active members online across the timezones i had my sights set on 1 single guild but do not meet requirements yet, maybe not ever.

PPS: Darosh you make some excellent points sir

1# marked bit: Pick up the vinyl addon package, its shipped with basiclly everything you need and everything that could potentially be required - it also is completly set up; if you don't like the stock setup it comes in ask for profiles on the forums, people will help you out.

2# marked bit: Communication is key, hence the requirement of voice comms - but don't worry most guilds DO NOT require you to use a microphone, they just want you to be able to react to calls and alike. You should give it a shot, the people you'll meet will be the funniest bunch of derps in 9/10 cases.

3# marked bit: Perception and bias - its a hobby akin to playing on a football team or meeting up for LAN parties, you wouldn't consider those things chores that amount to work, you'd either join in on them or simply choose not to.

4# marked bit: Try to engage in conversations with the recruiters of those guilds; don't let their macro or guild description discourage you - they WILL allow for exceptions to their rules, people aren't as elitist as their requirements suggest.
If they happen to be a bit little grumpy chances are they got scammed and **** over in the past by people that joined, got themselves pots/gear/free plvl and buggered off without any notice whatsoever, never to be seen again - its nothing personal or has anything remotely elitist to it.
Investing time to deck someone out (to enable them to play with you) is time you do not actively play the game, if that investment turns into void...well, you will generally be less inclined to repeat your supposed mistake.
It comes down to the very same reasons you (have to) deem warbands sessions out of bounds.

5# marked bit: Exaggeration. I can't think of a single guild currently active on RoR that has so many sessions a week. But in regards to sessions see 4#, again. The people playing this game have kids, work or/and other obligations in life - no one will mind if you skip sessions, as long you don't skip every single one over a course of weeks and months, without notice.

6# marked bit: Its either A or B - but cannot be both. See your conclusion above - then 3#, 4# right after and then 5# again.
Abbd.: Either you like or dislike organized guilds - and dislike or like unorganized guilds. No offense intended.

7# marked bit: I can see where you are coming from. However, to clarify (if my rants were giving you this impression):
It is not a requirement but highly advised to run in a group. You can still have plenty of fun in a duo roaming the lakes - but you shouldn't have any issues whatsoever picking up a group either, even if its a pug warband it'll do... kind off.
(The pugshepherd inside me wants to come out and play... - lemme put it this way: once you've played in a proper group you'll get hooked and strive for joining one of those mean guilds that run organized warbands/groups. You just haven't received that initial very fix.)

8# marked bit: Dungeons are not a thing yet, sadly - they would help alleviate alot of the issues with xp, gear and incentivise grouping by virtue of narrative and shinies. But, well, you gotta consider the nature of this project.

9# marked bit: Again, see 4# - give it a shot. Alternatively check the guild forums - if you haven't done so yet - or ask around ingame. Seize the initiative if need be and start up a guild yourself.

For the last bit: thank you.

Abbd.: Words, grammar and syntax aren't with me today, holy ****.

E: Words and stuff.

[dantesinfernalhell]

Leveling to t4 was never a Problem its done in 1-3 days inclusiv full Ruin Set!
It's Same like ppl cry about Gold in a game where you can farm 100 per hour easy with every char. And more with some chars. The only Problem is get renown But If you Level to t4 and you have full Ruin you can get renown rank 40 Pretty fast
And get anhiliator or merc or beast lord Set is easy too

as a newb, where might I farm this 100g per hour pls, I need mounts and shinies =D