Return of Reckoning

Just make BG knockdown trigger off block or parry (or remove block requirement altogether)

Opens up several decent builds and gives 2H BG a more viable role in a 6 man

Perhaps reduce the duration to max 4 secs (3 if no block or parry requirement)

Xaun wrote:Just make BG knockdown trigger off block or parry (or remove block requirement altogether)

Opens up several decent builds and gives 2H BG a more viable role in a 6 man

Perhaps reduce the duration to max 4 secs (3 if no block or parry requirement)

I am in the process of making a BG to really learn why this class is so "lack-luster". Up to this point I have only played Knight/Chosen/SM and tinkered with an IB. So working now on BG to figure out what this class can/cant do well....

This is probably one of the best suggestions I have seen. I am in favor of "KISS" adjustments (keep it simple stupid!) and adjusting this would really (as Xaun stated) open up MANY builds, make 2H more viable etc.

I would do this as change #1 and see how BG starts to perform after this. I am not in favor of removing the "requirement" but changing it from a block -> parry would be a very small "buff" and allow 2H to use this.

My suggestion; drop the KD requirement, but make it max 4 sec with +75 Hate, 3 sec with +50 Hate, 2 sec with +25 Hate, and shitty one sec KD with below 25 hate.
There is IMO just no need to make it extra hard for the BG when other classes have such easy way to get their KDs.

Torquemadra wrote:

th3gatekeeper wrote:

Xaun wrote:Just make BG knockdown trigger off block or parry (or remove block requirement altogether)

Opens up several decent builds and gives 2H BG a more viable role in a 6 man

Perhaps reduce the duration to max 4 secs (3 if no block or parry requirement)

I am in the process of making a BG to really learn why this class is so "lack-luster". Up to this point I have only played Knight/Chosen/SM and tinkered with an IB. So working now on BG to figure out what this class can/cant do well....

This is probably one of the best suggestions I have seen. I am in favor of "KISS" adjustments (keep it simple stupid!) and adjusting this would really (as Xaun stated) open up MANY builds, make 2H more viable etc.

I would do this as change #1 and see how BG starts to perform after this. I am not in favor of removing the "requirement" but changing it from a block -> parry would be a very small "buff" and allow 2H to use this.

See you 'say' keep it simple but Xauns suggestion is much more complex than you can imagine due to how abilities are constructed, these arent random fields we can just change from a 0 to a 1. Aside from the complexity, removing/changing conditionals from existing abilities are unlikely to occur and a potential class best such as the 5s KD isnt going to be nerfed on a class that people 'claim' is underpowered so people can wave a 2hander, Ironbreakers cant use Cave In with a shield can they? Thats not changing either.

Thanks Torq,

I dont know what all is going on behind the curtain so the "KISS" thing was more with respect to the balance of the class. I would HOPE the 5sec KD gets nerfed down to maybe 4 max if adjusted to a Parry rather than block (which was the suggestion).

If that isnt feasible... then we will have to look in other "areas" because it seems to me that one reason people "claim" its underpowered has less to do with the class itself and more to do with the other classes and their abilities... For instance. BG's wounds debuff is sub-par compared to say, a Mara or even Chosen. Especially because its not something you can reliably use at the beginning of a fight to lower their wounds which is equivalent to 1k-1.5k "damage dealt".

Also, things like Horrific Wound is easily replaced with a Mara's Cutting Claw... Pitless Strike is just as good as Corruption... So there is much "overlap" as you well know of those two classes... So it loses some of its "value add" in groups... Heck even Furious Howl is replaced with Mara's "Pulverize"....

So really the only things unique to BG are things like its LONG KD, or Super Punt (which Chosen/Knights have) or AoE Snare.

You combine that with the fact that as a BG you need 8 mastery points to get up to your basic guard mitigation / avoidance "ability" (Anger Drives Me) and this also scales with hatred (which you dont always have at 100), while all other tanks get much stronger guard mitigation abilities for much less "cost":

- Chosen "Suppression" = 25% parry for 15 seconds. (0 mastery required). [Better/less cost]
- IB "Oathbound" = 25% Parry for BOTH you and oathfriend (6 Mastery). [Better/less cost]
- Knights "Shield Charge" gives 10% block for 10 seconds (0 Mastery) and you can beef this up if needed with coordination. [Better/Less cost]
- BO's "Less Stabbin Me" gives Block and Parry 5%/10% (4 Mastery). [Worse, less cost]
- SM's "Perfect Defenses" (same as BO) + Wall of Darting Steel (no Mastery, but requires 2h). [Worse, less cost]

(However SM/BG were given other tools to compensate as well such as "Wall of Darting" and "Can't Hit Me" etc versus the BG's "NSP" has a 30 sec CD with 10 sec uptime and is full mastery in Loathing... So it has the "cost" of Can't Hit me, but isnt as good...)

So BG has to spend more Mastery for a basic guard mitigation tactic/ability than any other class that isnt as good as other classes options.

So not only does it not offer "unique" debuffs that are not easily replaced with other classes, it also has the hardest time getting any guard damage mitigation/avoidance.

So trying to look at what the BG can offer that is unique is rather limited to a small few areas... like its LONG KD...

it's a bit different you cant compare passive tactic (which cant be cleanse/shatter) with active skill (which can be removed/shatter and also can fail due get parry).
BG parry buff is 30% vs a 25 of a chosen mixed defense and both are on the same mastery position.

(+Generally speaking BG need to spend more point for everything on his masterys)


I made a proposal for the change of NSP but as it stand now for what got out from that thread the mid mastery is k because how the FoF buff reduces your chance to be crit (45% which can go negative ) which is accessible both in 2h build and in s+b, so both 2h/s+b can have a 200+ armor buff over the pot and -45% chance to be crit.
NSP is a fail skill, an interrupt **** it, a KD/KB **** it , and is gone for 30 sec the only use it have is in mass rvr where is unlikely you will be interrupt (in the case use then hold the line but why not use it in first place? ally need hold the line protection dont eb selfish) or in pve (which is then likee the one of IB on the same position , 4 auto block well BG one is stronger cuz worst avoidance). The best use is leave it as pve skill hence the high position and high utility in pve.
Since you can spec 2 mastery with enough high level there are not so many problem get the tools you want rather that the quality or the difficulty to use them due to skill economy .
Also BO/SM channeling are not gave for free, at least not BO version (60% snare).

SM one is a bit op with no trade out,imo "both" should get a 15% snare (not stackable) and that's it. Both are fair as the SM have no defense out of it and the BO one is only frontal so he cant just turn and move away; so yea 15% snare to both and case close ( BO trade off is a bit too much for me 60% is too huge).

Kobs have only that and vigilance pretty much as BG parry tactic and FOF exept that block work vs all while parry not ( in fact the problem is shielding anger).

shielding anger is both op and meh:
pro-->
can regardless of mastery position make disrupt reach crazy value

meh-->
because it's too up for an avoidance tactic
Because mastery "MAD"( basic avoidance in 2 different mastery)
because if yu go 2h you cant have both disrupt and parry tactics
because work only vs BW/AM(lack dodge against SW/ENgi basically 2/3 of the rdps out there)
Because need a second tactic slot for base avoidance (where usually other tank do that with skill+ tactic and not 2x+ tactics)

basically since you have no block , you should have all the other def all togheter, the problem is BG is currently reaching crazy value; so those values should be both nerfed in Max reachable value ( so ye no more 100% disrupt) but they should be also merged in 1 tactic and since block cover all type of attack the avoidance for a not block tank sould also protect you from physic rdd not only BW; let's say 30/40% parry, 15/20% dodge, 15/20% disrupt, so yea a dodge buff should be add but both dodge disrup should be half the parry buff). Since all is linked to hate and 2h build is hate hungry 2h is alredy less def than s+b build.( cant decide for 30-15 or 40-20; probably should be the last).
This would also allow to give BG right mastery a good suppport tactic in place of the disrupt one and put all the avoidance in 1 tactic in the same mastery (so less Mastery MAD)
So 1 tactic for avoidance and just that + 1 skill for dmg reduction (this is pretty more similar to KOBS). Then yes there are other def tactics but so also have KOBS and other tanks aswell.

a 2h BG with base avoidance would have from renown + tactic 38% in dodge , 38% in disrupt , and 58% in parry. Those are pretty "ok" values as passive when with an active skill SM can reach 68% in parry, dodge, disrupt. (skill+ renown and no tactic)

a s+b in hold the line would have 58% parry (same as 2h), 83% dodge, 83%disrupt which is a false statement because BG require to spent much more time than other tank acting actively, so if it's using hold the line is sacrificing more support than what other tank would do in his place, so is definetly fine which it have both higer def in the end so he can stop earlier to hold the line after a dangerous situation or can wait more time to use it. This with out considering that being hate based all the BG avoidance is pretty **** at the begginning of a fight and if you are not aware of that it can end pretty bad sometimes.
Pretty sure the 2h avoidance would be OK , if then the s+b would be too good than that's have to do with the hate management which is really low required on s+b spec; probably some skill use on s+b build should consume hate if they do not or hold the lien should not stack just over write the 15/20 with the 45% (which would be teh easier one and more in line with 2h SM for a passive wall of darting stell (less strong coevalent but passive ) and being a not block based tank out of hold the line. (parry is k even with out chosen value bcause toughness tactic which mitigate guard dmg).

Torquemadra wrote: None shall pass doesnt have a movement penalty as cant hit me does, Im not arguing the values but it is there, you seem to be a fan of moving quicker so would assume this to be more to your taste.

Also NSP was a 5pt ability remember and built for that position.

Very true. After posting that I recalled the change... The movement was another thread and less about "combat" movement more about movement through the world. So take that for what it is... I dont play a BO and likely wouldnt go for NSP on BG anyways unless it was beefed up to be inline with the cost for the tree.

Like I said above, I think the "BG issue" is largely a function of "what does it offer that other classes cant". The other tanks have a slightly easier time with guard damage/mitigation and not as much overlap with other classes. You have a Mara in your group and it basically moots much of the "point" behind a BG... Especially if you are a Chosen who can super punt as well.

I obviously dont know THE solution... I doubt there is an easy one. The class seems like it is "almost" there... As in its just missing a little "piece" or something to make it good...

I know its not apples to apples, but thinking in terms of guarding MDPS. comparing IB to BG...

IB gets very easy access to both Oathbound + Ancestor's Fury that now give any MDPS "guard-ee" 25% more parry 10% more crit. 75 Str and 50 Initiative. Which are both HUGE buffs, no CD or AP cost, just 15 grudge each.

The BG's Crimson Death is on 10 sec CD, the debuff only lasts 5 sec (but does apply to the group) and costs 30 Hate.
The BG's Anger Drives me, provides no parry to its "Dark Protector" and its very likely you wont have 83+ Hatred to give you the same "parry" as IB as well as not giving the stats to the "guard-ee/dark protector".... Now BG gets some nice "debuffs" but those are moot when you add a Mara to the group where as you dont really lose the benefits from IB with a singular other class added to your party...

I always wondered if Shield of Rage "also applying to your dark protector" would be too OP or not... But that could be a cool "niche" the BG could fill (A bubble damage shield) that could give the dark protector an added defensive "boost" with a BG in its party... Or "easier access to the KD" as mentioned above would make it "the KD king" for some CC. I know it was talked about before making Crimson Death last 10 seconds.... But frankly I would rather focus less on the "buff" side of the class and more on how to make it more a niche roll....

If a Mara is in the group with a chosen.. what does the BG offer to that group.

Woulds debuff - Mara/Chosen
Armor debuff - Mara (Chosen on his BL 6 pc set has this too)
Toughness debuff - Mara + Chosen aura
-Parry % and - block %: Mara (also chosen can slot for this via tactic)
KD - Chosen (though only 3 sec)
Super Punt - Chosen


So what BG can bring those 2 cant:
- Crimson Death (10% crit chance for 5 sec)
- AoE Snare
(however these two are largely mutually exclusive due to cost to get both).
- 5 sec KD (restricted to block which makes it mutually exclusive to C.D.)
- Outgoing Heal Debuff (however mutually exclusive to some other options such as trying to have AoE snare + C.D. + Soul Killer which you cant do...)

So in terms of "build options" BG is really in a GREAT spot as there are multiple versions on how to play and they are all at a tug of war... But the problem is the unique benefits are exclusive where as the non-unique benefits are NOT which makes any of these "versions on how to play" lack luster in terms of a party groups... Like the BG is cool when its "isolated" but when your start to form "parties" you nearly immediately toss out the BG and just opt for a Mara+Chosen combo...

Its almost as if the BG needs better/less restrictive access to its unique "benefits" (more crit+aoe snare+KD+Outgoing HD) and then OPTIONAL access to its non unique ones (armor debuff/toughness/ferocious howl). However this would require a pretty large adjustment to the class and potentially balance issues if it went overboard...

th3gatekeeper wrote:

Torquemadra wrote: None shall pass doesnt have a movement penalty as cant hit me does, Im not arguing the values but it is there, you seem to be a fan of moving quicker so would assume this to be more to your taste.

Also NSP was a 5pt ability remember and built for that position.

Very true. After posting that I recalled the change... The movement was another thread and less about "combat" movement more about movement through the world. So take that for what it is... I dont play a BO and likely wouldnt go for NSP on BG anyways unless it was beefed up to be inline with the cost for the tree.

Like I said above, I think the "BG issue" is largely a function of "what does it offer that other classes cant". The other tanks have a slightly easier time with guard damage/mitigation and not as much overlap with other classes. You have a Mara in your group and it basically moots much of the "point" behind a BG... Especially if you are a Chosen who can super punt as well.

I obviously dont know THE solution... I doubt there is an easy one. The class seems like it is "almost" there... As in its just missing a little "piece" or something to make it good...

I know its not apples to apples, but thinking in terms of guarding MDPS. comparing IB to BG...

IB gets very easy access to both Oathbound + Ancestor's Fury that now give any MDPS "guard-ee" 25% more parry 10% more crit. 75 Str and 50 Initiative. Which are both HUGE buffs, no CD or AP cost, just 15 grudge each.

The BG's Crimson Death is on 10 sec CD, the debuff only lasts 5 sec (but does apply to the group) and costs 30 Hate.
The BG's Anger Drives me, provides no parry to its "Dark Protector" and its very likely you wont have 83+ Hatred to give you the same "parry" as IB as well as not giving the stats to the "guard-ee/dark protector".... Now BG gets some nice "debuffs" but those are moot when you add a Mara to the group where as you dont really lose the benefits from IB with a singular other class added to your party...

I always wondered if Shield of Rage "also applying to your dark protector" would be too OP or not... But that could be a cool "niche" the BG could fill (A bubble damage shield) that could give the dark protector an added defensive "boost" with a BG in its party... Or "easier access to the KD" as mentioned above would make it "the KD king" for some CC. I know it was talked about before making Crimson Death last 10 seconds.... But frankly I would rather focus less on the "buff" side of the class and more on how to make it more a niche roll....

If a Mara is in the group with a chosen.. what does the BG offer to that group.

Woulds debuff - Mara/Chosen
Armor debuff - Mara (Chosen on his BL 6 pc set has this too)
Toughness debuff - Mara + Chosen aura
-Parry % and - block %: Mara (also chosen can slot for this via tactic)
KD - Chosen (though only 3 sec)
Super Punt - Chosen


So what BG can bring those 2 cant:
- Crimson Death (10% crit chance for 5 sec)
- AoE Snare
(however these two are largely mutually exclusive due to cost to get both).
- 5 sec KD (restricted to block which makes it mutually exclusive to C.D.)
- Outgoing Heal Debuff (however mutually exclusive to some other options such as trying to have AoE snare + C.D. + Soul Killer which you cant do...)

So in terms of "build options" BG is really in a GREAT spot as there are multiple versions on how to play and they are all at a tug of war... But the problem is the unique benefits are exclusive where as the non-unique benefits are NOT which makes any of these "versions on how to play" lack luster in terms of a party groups... Like the BG is cool when its "isolated" but when your start to form "parties" you nearly immediately toss out the BG and just opt for a Mara+Chosen combo...

Its almost as if the BG needs better/less restrictive access to its unique "benefits" (more crit+aoe snare+KD+Outgoing HD) and then OPTIONAL access to its non unique ones (armor debuff/toughness/ferocious howl). However this would require a pretty large adjustment to the class and potentially balance issues if it went overboard...

Is your entire point that Mara / Chosen have too much?

I mean you could remove their wounds debuffs, even the toughness debuffs, and they would still be more than viable because of the massive toolboxes of other tools they already have. Stagger, pull, AoE KD, biggest armor debuff, longest super punt, one of the best self heals in the game, best armor ignore tactic in the game.

You could gut those debuffs and they'd still be extremely strong. That's the entire point around them being the problem.

Karast wrote: Is your entire point that Mara / Chosen have too much?

I mean you could remove their wounds debuffs, even the toughness debuffs, and they would still be more than viable because of the massive toolboxes of other tools they already have. Stagger, pull, AoE KD, biggest armor debuff, longest super punt, one of the best self heals in the game, best armor ignore tactic in the game.

You could gut those debuffs and they'd still be extremely strong. That's the entire point around them being the problem.

I didnt follow you 100% here. You are using "their" to describe the Mara/Chosen?

Obviously Mara is very strong and has a great toolkit... So does the Chosen. I dont want to get into a "nerf" thread... Also if you merely nerfed these two, now you have balance with order vs destro etc... I dont think the solution is to start nerfing other classes because that is like pulling on a thread and who knows how big an impact that will have..

My point is the benefits of a BG are "overlapped" with a Mara/Chosen so that the value of a BG is moot.

I liked what Tesq said on the last page. I wish he could summarize things more as he has some REALLY good points and I feel they are lost in too much text (I have the same problem).

I think that some of the "party benefits" a BG brings needs to be diverse from the Mara/Chosen combo. You get a SnB Chosen who grabs KD + Super Punt paired with a Savagery Mara and what can the BG add to that party?.... Thats my point...

Increase range by 5-10 feet of all BG 2h abilities to account they're carrying a long ass spear, doesn't make them a ranged class, but would be a niche for a melee/tank class to be able to have a tiny bit more reach than anyone else.

to summarize for @gate