Changehammer

[gebajger]

Well my last post just disappeared so here's the short version.

Cannons are fine at keeps, but aren't an option when you're roaming (partly because of the visibility range...the zerg just appears out of thin air)

Having a ball at inactive zones is quite difficult when they are dead.

Some things don't require weeks of testing. If you put several hundreds of people (usual t4 pop) in one zone, it is going to be zergy.

And finally, this is not a personal attack, just the opinion of some of us.

[Azarael]

The visibility range of the emu is 375 feet, with the client's limit being 400 feet. I would ask how you can't see them coming from that range, but your experience contradicts my own anyway, as I've been playing (and using cannons) and they wreck. Even one AoE cannon can wreck and if more than one is hitting a blob, people die very quickly. Most of the time when I've lost a cannon, it's been because a small group or a warband intercepted me while towing it or because I was the only one using a cannon in the vicinity, so the damage wasn't enough to kill anyone.

People are going to need time to adjust to the idea that zerging is a losing strategy against AoE cannons. Not having a readout of available cannons and cannon limit (because of client problems) doesn't help much in this regard, nor does the 10x HP problem, which prevents one of the intended counterplays against AoE cannons, which is sniping them with ST cannons.

The RvR zones are huge. Having only one open for play is not a problem if the mechanics are correct, but we have to GET to that stage and it's not going to happen overnight. One thing is for certain, I'm not going to open additional zones because doing so will prevent me from refining the mechanics. Additional zones allow a realm to duck fights and start pushing an empty keep in a different zone, just as was done all the time when all 3 zones were open at once. That adds fight downtime and travel costs.

[gebajger]

It would be more than awesome to see the enemy at 375 feet, sadly in practice they appear at about 150-200 at best when moving towards me, and usually much less...just outside of the general casting/shooting range.
I can see terrain and obstacles from miles away, but not players.

Edit: I think its because the loading time...If I'm standing still on a hill, looking down at a BO for example, people at the flag start to show up after a few seconds at quite a long distance.
But when moving the visibility is way shorter.
(i have ror installed on a ssd)

[Natherul]

It would be more than awesome to see the enemy at 375 feet, sadly in practice they appear at about 150-200 at best when moving towards me, and usually much less...just outside of the general casting/shooting range.
I can see terrain and obstacles from miles away, but not players.

Edit: I think its because the loading time...If I'm standing still on a hill, looking down at a BO for example, people at the flag start to show up after a few seconds at quite a long distance.
But when moving the visibility is way shorter.
(i have ror installed on a ssd)

That is really weird, Im seeing people pop up close to the mentioned 375 mark, check your settings ingame (video -> customize -> draw distance).

[drmordread]

The skeleton crew in charge of WAR near the end, hell even half way through were plain trash. Wanting to preserve their """legacy""" is laughable, the game needs to be balanced.

Curious to know how changing the campaign mechanics from free flowing battle in 3 zones. what WAR ORvR is SUPPOSED TO BE, to static day long slog fests in one zone at a time, have to do with game balance? To top it off, resources, something we all hated in the 1.4 patch, have somehow made it back, but you want to make it better?

jmho

[Calendra]

Being able to attack a keep in another zone its part of game strategy, you can do this to split the enemy, to distract an enemy etc. When there is only one zone to fight (aka taking keeps->locking) no one will bother to fight in another zone, why would they? For rewards on taking/defending a bo? Not to say about lagging problems when everyone in same area, even in warcamps.
So ye, forcing fights in one zone its bad for game.
Engi/magus increasing range was also a bad decision, and were lot of posts with feedback about it, with explanation why was bad, but was ignored by devs because "reasons".
While i admire the staff for making the server, and working a lot so war can be playable again, i start to believe these changes are pushed just to see how work, and not analyzed before on paper. Also feedback its marked as "whining" and ignored, so overall the server is slowly moving away from original game. And why i mention original game? Because most players here are the ones who played warhammer on live, and they are here to play that game with those mechanics. Making too many changes will only make people to stop playing, or ones who come to play to find a version of the game they don't know, and again stop to play.
I don't know what is the big strategy behind these changes, but like in any game you have to try to make people happy to keep them in game. Don't know, maybe try to post changes before making them and see what reaction players have, maybe some will bring some solutions to problems without need to apply fix after fix just to fix a thing was changed in a hurry.

[Noergl]

Engi/magus increasing range was also a bad decision, and were lot of posts with feedback about it, with explanation why was bad, but was ignored by devs because "reasons".

I disagree, most of that so called feedback was a big buhuhuuu, i cant kill engies that easily as before, whining party. And if you think there was lots of feedback, please be so fair as to mention there was also lots of posts welcoming the changes. If you say everything was just ignored, thats an ignorant statement and simply shows you still haven´t understood how feedback works for Aza and the devs to have any impact in their decision process.

Because most players here are the ones who played warhammer on live, and they are here to play that game with those mechanics. Making too many changes will only make people to stop playing, or ones who come to play to find a version of the game they don't know, and again stop to play.

And may i ask how you got that knowledge what most players want? If you think its because of the posts in the forum, you neglected to read all those entries welcoming the changes? And you also have forgotten what in live didnt work too? Stop this life version glorification and try to remember the problems it had - and perhaps then you can welcome the efforts to make ror a better game than war was. And im sick and tired that some people think they speak for the majority of us here in ror - news flash, they (and you) dont!

I don't know what is the big strategy behind these changes, but like in any game you have to try to make people happy to keep them in game.

Really? Aza has to make you happy because you payed for the game and your monthly subscription fee? Oh wait... We´re testers on a free alpha version, we´re privileged to have the opportunity to play this great game again, and what is expected from us as players? Nothing more than reporting bugs, giving constructive feedback and perhaps give the devs the respect they deserve!
And finally, you ´re totally right, you don´t know the strategy behind these changes. I don´t know them either. But in contrast to you I have trust in the devs to enhance the gaming experience for all of us!

[Calendra]

I disagree, most of that so called feedback was a big buhuhuuu, i cant kill engies that easily as before, whining party. And if you think there was lots of feedback, please be so fair as to mention there was also lots of posts welcoming the changes. If you say everything was just ignored, thats an ignorant statement and simply shows you still haven´t understood how feedback works for Aza and the devs to have any impact in their decision process.

I was talking about range, and that has nothing to do with killing easy engies/maguses or not. Its about an increased range which allow engies/maguses to reach attackers/defenders in places designed as safe by Mithic when created the map with all objectives. For example, in any T3 keep after changes engies/maguses can reach any siege placed on top of keep from outer walls. In a game where keeps were designed so a siege could be only reached with other siege. If its so hard for you to make difference between increased range and buffed dmg than no point to discuss anymore.
And i could quote but i'm too lazy, when Aza said he will ignore all posts in engi thread because he doesn't think those posts are more than whining. So don't assume i didn't understood how feedback works.

And may i ask how you got that knowledge what most players want? If you think its because of the posts in the forum, you neglected to read all those entries welcoming the changes? And you also have forgotten what in live didnt work too? Stop this life version glorification and try to remember the problems it had - and perhaps then you can welcome the efforts to make ror a better game than war was. And im sick and tired that some people think they speak for the majority of us here in ror - news flash, they (and you) dont!

Most players who played warhammer on live, not what most people want. And those players expect (as i and others i know from that time when i joined) to find a version of live game. I never said "majority" of players, i don't know where do you get those ideas. Also maybe try to check chat in game sometime, and see what people think. Don't assume everything goes fine if people don't post on forums. Most don't even bother to read forums, not to say about posting. The forum times are dead, now everyone use the shitty facebook...

Really? Aza has to make you happy because you payed for the game and your monthly subscription fee? Oh wait... We´re testers on a free alpha version, we´re privileged to have the opportunity to play this great game again, and what is expected from us as players? Nothing more than reporting bugs, giving constructive feedback and perhaps give the devs the respect they deserve!
And finally, you ´re totally right, you don´t know the strategy behind these changes. I don´t know them either. But in contrast to you I have trust in the devs to enhance the gaming experience for all of us!

Oh, the "free game" argument again, and the "privilege" one also. Again, read what i posted. Its about keeping players in a game, not about privileges, rights, subscriptions. If tomorrow no one log in game, do you think devs will continue to work on server? Whats the point? The server will be alive as long as players are happy to log in. Even more, being a game where devs have nothing to gain (like money) the big picture should be the happiness of players first, and changes in game should be based on community feedback.

[Yaliskah]

I disagree, most of that so called feedback was a big buhuhuuu, i cant kill engies that easily as before, whining party. And if you think there was lots of feedback, please be so fair as to mention there was also lots of posts welcoming the changes. If you say everything was just ignored, thats an ignorant statement and simply shows you still haven´t understood how feedback works for Aza and the devs to have any impact in their decision process.

I was talking about range, and that has nothing to do with killing easy engies/maguses or not. Its about an increased range which allow engies/maguses to reach attackers/defenders in places designed as safe by Mithic when created the map with all objectives. For example, in any T3 keep after changes engies/maguses can reach any siege placed on top of keep from outer walls. In a game where keeps were designed so a siege could be only reached with other siege. If its so hard for you to make difference between increased range and buffed dmg than no point to discuss anymore.
And i could quote but i'm too lazy, when Aza said he will ignore all posts in engi thread because he doesn't think those posts are more than whining. So don't assume i didn't understood how feedback works.

And may i ask how you got that knowledge what most players want? If you think its because of the posts in the forum, you neglected to read all those entries welcoming the changes? And you also have forgotten what in live didnt work too? Stop this life version glorification and try to remember the problems it had - and perhaps then you can welcome the efforts to make ror a better game than war was. And im sick and tired that some people think they speak for the majority of us here in ror - news flash, they (and you) dont!

Most players who played warhammer on live, not what most people want. And those players expect (as i and others i know from that time when i joined) to find a version of live game. I never said "majority" of players, i don't know where do you get those ideas. Also maybe try to check chat in game sometime, and see what people think. Don't assume everything goes fine if people don't post on forums. Most don't even bother to read forums, not to say about posting. The forum times are dead, now everyone use the shitty facebook...

Really? Aza has to make you happy because you payed for the game and your monthly subscription fee? Oh wait... We´re testers on a free alpha version, we´re privileged to have the opportunity to play this great game again, and what is expected from us as players? Nothing more than reporting bugs, giving constructive feedback and perhaps give the devs the respect they deserve!
And finally, you ´re totally right, you don´t know the strategy behind these changes. I don´t know them either. But in contrast to you I have trust in the devs to enhance the gaming experience for all of us!

Oh, the "free game" argument again, and the "privilege" one also. Again, read what i posted. Its about keeping players in a game, not about privileges, rights, subscriptions. If tomorrow no one log in game, do you think devs will continue to work on server? Whats the point? The server will be alive as long as players are happy to log in. Even more, being a game where devs have nothing to gain (like money) the big picture should be the happiness of players first, and changes in game should be based on community feedback.

I understand most of your concerns, and to be clear, that not a secret inside the staff, i partly share some of your opinions about some changes. But the team has all my trust and support. I know changing things, making choices is a risk of displeasing, even when people thinks tenaciously that changes will be writen in the rock without any chance to move back or be refined or made in a secund. I know they try to work for the best for all of us, and like any human they can make mistakes. And thats the point, some actual changes shocked me, but i give time to see in which way it has an impact on the game and i try my best to give candide feedbacks when i feel something goes wrong. So i just can say ' it is too much, it is unsufficient. Time is our enemy, and probably in this situation your best friend.

Things takes time, to be tested, to be modified. As team manager i asked month ago to start the RvR redesign in my name if needed and take the risk to break everything until we find the best solution, the most incentive way. And here we are. You will all admit that month ago T4 was boring,and that some way has been done. Ofc, many little things have to be discussed, refined, but here it is, many steps have been done to the good direction ( my opinion), and the distance to a "perfect" one is near.

Once again, our goal is to make things enjoyable. It takes time, and we learn more from mistakes than successes. If it wasn't the case and if we were doing the perfect changes in one shot, it would be disturbing for professionnals in game industry.

[sabat80]

... as I've been playing (and using cannons) and they wreck. Even one AoE cannon can wreck and if more than one is hitting a blob, people die very quickly. Most of the time when I've lost a cannon...

Yes they will, but the problem which you have now is that it is the zerg which is using cannons. Destro had yesterday excess of 12 mobile cannons field and the zerg was going together steamrolling everything in TM, as that amount of artillery just wipes everything. How about you limit number of cannons which can be deployed by a single WB? or the bigger the WB is the less cannons they can deploy (not sure if possible), but this would give a small aprty advantage to split the zerg.

People are going to need time to adjust to the idea that zerging is a losing strategy against AoE cannons.

People have already adjusted zerg takes BO's, zerg moves supplies, gets keep to lvl 5, deploys as many cannons as possible in 1 blob and forgets about BO's. It happened yesterday in TM. As soon destro keep was lvl 5 cannons were deployed on mass and only think which was happening was cannon hammer and making sure that posterns are covered to stop resources - BO's became irrelevant as with the keep de-ranking field artillery is still usable.

...which prevents one of the intended counterplays against AoE cannons, which is sniping them with ST cannons.

That is an adopted strategy already, but can something be done to help targeting cannons (make them bigger?). I was trying to snipe out hellblaster with my bolt thrower on flat piece of ground and it was nearly impossible to lock on it due to people just being a meat shield in front?

The RvR zones are huge. Having only one open for play is not a problem if the mechanics are correct, but we have to GET to that stage and it's not going to happen overnight. One thing is for certain, I'm not going to open additional zones because doing so will prevent me from refining the mechanics. Additional zones allow a realm to duck fights and start pushing an empty keep in a different zone, just as was done all the time when all 3 zones were open at once. That adds fight downtime and travel costs.

In current state of the realm and gives you data to analyse and adjust, therefore there is no need to open more than 1 zone at the time. However the problem is that cannons are making that fight not funny and people just going for SC leaving zones nearly undefended (yesterday Caledor after TM take over)