Blackguard

[Bozzax]

Can we please leave racial wbs and BoR out of the discussion?
(I know it was me that started BoR and in hindsight I should have left that out.)

Back on point of this thread.

This is what the thread was about

[Lektroluv]

This is what the thread was about

Perfectly explained in how midle tree may have been since BG launch, parry tactic in first slot, and area snare easier acces than spending 14 points on it.

That is exactly a basic point for add some CC to the class and nothing gamebreaking, there is still better area snares around since this one is 10 sec snare, with 20 sec cooldown.

Reasonably, and logical for a tank class

[Ninepaces]

Im just going to chime in on this. Ive been playing BG a lot recently, and mostly in 6v6, 6vPugs, 6vZerg. I rolled just before the rr boost weekend and am at rr46 already...so a lot of gameplay recently but not much experience compared to some here

Essentially what I'm trying to do with the build is use tactics for surviving and then stacking strength to try to contribute as much offense as I can. Both toughness tactics, unstoppable jugger, parry tact.

-with the str pot, tough buff applied any time, and hateful strike tactic applied at 90 hate stats are 820 strength, 930 toughness, 55% parry. Maybe I can get 875 str with max gear. That's without RD and with 20 renown points into strength. Impressive on paper (I recall a BO that does more damage than me telling me he was 600 strength/600 tough) but sadly this is not enough to compete with BO for an offense tank slot. Its become apparent to me tank support damage doesnt come from traditional strength buffed abilities but from additional stuff like loudmouth or abilities that proc other things like covenants multiple times. Think swordmaster dot procs for example. BG doesnt really have the tools to multi proc except for maybe enraged beating, and to take that and the mandatory AOE snare and the other stuff I lose heal debuff/ap drain and still need 40/50 or 40/60. But I'm still looking at alternative builds for 40/50.

I mention damage right away because it is very clear right from the outset that BG does not provide the same level of raw utility that BO does.The knock down needs a proc. The punt needs hate. The aoe snare has 20s cd. Doesnt drain morale. Doesnt debuff initative. No morale pump. Armor debuff weaker than maura and although has a 5s cd is a moot point when in a 6v6 setting we are not killing targets in less than 10s. Other debuffs are weak/useless.... -10%block/-10%parry aoe (weak and can be blocked and parried itself hilariously). -25% crit chance (weak). toughness debuff (useless due to chosen aura). Heal debuff outgoing 50% (needs a tactic and only useful when hitting a healer. doesnt help much more than the maura heal debuff). AP drain (good, but I lose it if I try the enraged beating build). Shatter Enchantment (good but cant control which one I shatter). The only thing BG essentially offers is the AOE snare from 40ft making it possible to snare a backline target BEFORE the melee train hits it. Maura has cage anyways.

-I think the devs can go one of two routes.... either make BG utility equivalent to BO/Chosen. Changes like this would include making the kd more reliable maybe removing the proc, lowering the position of the aoe snare/parry tactics in the tree, and virtually improving nearly every buff/debuff/abilitiy of BG across the board. For example, making their buffs/debuffs stack with others, -25% crit chance --> -50% damage. -10% block/parry --> -75% all defenses. To make up for what BG loses in comparison to bo/chosen they need stuff that people are actually sad to miss when saying a BG cant join their premade.

- Or change the way tanks do damage. Either buff BG raw damage (I think preferable), or nerf the damage proc meta of the other tanks. IMO BG should be very close to SM dmg and clearly better than BO.

-(Or improving both utility and dmg).

[Ninepaces]

Also, I would welcome changes in mid tree in the picture above.

[TenTonHammer]

Feeding on pain is such a wasted tactic, with driven by hate, ap gear, ap pots and dok ap on heal

their no need for worries about lack of ap

[Ninepaces]

just like all the other wasted tactics.

[Older]

wave of scorn - 10sec cooldown
kd dont requies block but requies just shield weared
feeding on weakness + crush the weak out of cooldown
+ some tactics needs to be fixed
oh and pitiless strike can be stacked 3x times like mind killer (like it was on live)

that things will make bg much better to play in small groups cause in wb mode theyre not bad atm.

[Ninepaces]

wave of scorn - 10sec cooldown
kd dont requies block but requies just shield weared
feeding on weakness + crush the weak out of cooldown
+ some tactics needs to be fixed
oh and pitiless strike can be stacked 3x times like mind killer (like it was on live)

that things will make bg much better to play in small groups cause in wb mode theyre not bad atm.

An ok start but even with these would any premade take this BG over BO in a serious group?

[Tesq]

You can't put a party tactict lower than the tough, the tough increase % is more base than the parry increase also the only comparable tactic it' mixed defense and it's on 5pt

[Bozzax]

Specialization points needed for basic guard mitigation / avoidance (~25% Parry or ~15% Block)
KOTBS 3pts
SM 0pts
IB opts
BO 0pts, 3pts
Chosen 0pts

Other tanks average: 3
Blackguard: 11

Ofc you can and imo it even makes a lot of sense especially as 2h BGs are within the theme and you consider the other 2h themed class has it core. The % toughness is great but not as crucial as guard damage avoidance in team play. I know you love the defs though