Return of Reckoning

sure, dont agree in the slightest,but who the **** cares about what i say, have fun boyz, carry on

zumos2 wrote:

Penril wrote:And before someone comes and says "yeah but... CC!!!" please link me a screenshot where it has "Crowd Controller" as an archetype on top of Magus/Engies in the character creation screen.

Thanks!

That makes absolutely no sense. That would be the same as saying that ZL/RP do the least healing themselves, thus are the weakest healers. That is saying that tanks shouldn't deal damage, because they are tanks and no damage dealers. The fact that Engineers/Maguses have some good CC should obviously count in towards the balance. That being said, if you look at small scale, tanks and healers generally have enough CC to CC the important enemies at the right times (with staggers, silences, knock downs and knock backs), that you don't really need your dps to do that.

For large scale Engineers/Maguses get their strength out of the CC (pull + Aoe Stun and AoE stagger), besides pretty decent AoE damage.

The problem comes when a class whose primary purpose is X is either:

- Chiefly about unrelated aspect Y
- Suffering in terms of its primary aspect X because it is too much of Y

zumos2 wrote:

Penril wrote:And before someone comes and says "yeah but... CC!!!" please link me a screenshot where it has "Crowd Controller" as an archetype on top of Magus/Engies in the character creation screen.

Thanks!

That makes absolutely no sense. That would be the same as saying that ZL/RP do the least healing themselves, thus are the weakest healers. That is saying that tanks shouldn't deal damage, because they are tanks and no damage dealers. The fact that Engineers/Maguses have some good CC should obviously count in towards the balance. That being said, if you look at small scale, tanks and healers generally have enough CC to CC the important enemies at the right times (with staggers, silences, knock downs and knock backs), that you don't really need your dps to do that.

For large scale Engineers/Maguses get their strength out of the CC (pull + Aoe Stun and AoE stagger), besides pretty decent AoE damage.

Your analogy is bad. The best healers are not the ones who have more numbers in a SC, but the ones who can keep their groups alive while taking care of themselves and not requiring much babysitting. Which is the reason why WP/Doks are numero uno (fast group heals, good survivavility) and AM/Shaman are considered the worst (can't really heal their group if they are forced to kite). There are several other factors of course but this is not a healer thread.

So going back to Magus/Engie: They lack strong DPS debuffs (like heal debuffs) and can't really DPS while kiting (unlike SH/SW on Skirmish stance/Spiked squig, or BW/Sorc DoTs and a few hard hitting instant spells). These things makes them the worst rDPS classes atm.

I don't care how much CC Magus/Engies have; they are rDPS classes who should be able to fill a spot as DPS in any setup (6-man or WB) and not just be relegated to CC bots.

Azarael wrote:
The problem comes when a class whose primary purpose is X is either:

- Chiefly about unrelated aspect Y
- Suffering in terms of its primary aspect X because it is too much of Y

Well I didn't say there wasn't a problem And I kinda agree with you, though I guess the purpose of a dps is to kill the enemies, not just to deal damage. Crowd Control CAN help in achieving that goal. The problem is you don't really need Maguses/Engineers's CC to be succesfull, which brings us back to what comes close to your second point. It's suffering because it has too much of useless Y and still suffering in its primary aspect X. That was the point for small scale. For large scale neither of your points would be true following my logic that CC can help to kill. But I guess you were talking about small scale anyway.

It's a given that magi/engi can perform in large scale because of rift (aka one button)...noone is disputing that. They ought to function as a DPS in any environment.

do people know about CC immunities? and actually engi/magus awesome CC?

spammable melee snare

ST kb that is horribly short and your tanks wouldnt be really happy
aoe root - even BWs have (it lasts what? 5 secs, breaks on dot tick and gives 30 sec immunity?)
engi aoe kb - awesome. we all know how awesome are BOs and SMs using aoe kb yea?

turret/daemon kd - first you have to actually summon or redeploy pet (its either 2 sec cast time or insta on cd, after gcd you can destroy the pet and aoe kd enemies)
magnet/rift - great in premade bomb grp, sure especially with aoe kd. but its again situational and clearly no "free" kill like WL or mara ST pull

aoe stagger - great. though kinda last like 0,5 sec in anything outside of smallscale cuz all the damage and dots flying around.

if you would give engi heavy armor, shield, guard and buff some of their CC I would gladly roll a tank.

Now you have a class that have highly situational CC that in most casses just do tanks in your grp way better (snare, ST kd, super punt) , no mobility and thus no dmg output when u r unable to stand on 1 place like turret...

tactic to make it insta cast is indeed nice though both engi and magus have to use other tactics to maintain some viability for grp. just give magus and engi 1-2 additional tactic slots and I think it would make the classes a lot of better

EDIT - btw rift and magnet were "nerfed" a long time ago and now can pull only 6 or so ememies. no more several grps being pulled and kd in the middle of bw/sorc aoe bomb zone

Penril wrote: Your analogy is bad. The best healers are not the ones who have more numbers in a SC, but the ones who can keep their groups alive while taking care of themselves and not requiring much babysitting. Which is the reason why WP/Doks are numero uno (fast group heals, good survivavility) and AM/Shaman are considered the worst (can't really heal their group if they are forced to kite). There are several other factors of course but this is not a healer thread.

Which is exactly my point. The best dps doesn't have to be the dps with the highest numbers if they bring other stuff to the table that can help kill. I won't go in further on what you wrote here, because it's definitely not completely true and so simple as you describe it.

Penril wrote: So going back to Magus/Engie: They lack strong DPS debuffs (like heal debuffs) and can't really DPS while kiting (unlike SH/SW on Skirmish stance/Spiked squig, or BW/Sorc DoTs and a few hard hitting instant spells). These things makes them the worst rDPS classes atm.

I never said they weren't ...

Penril wrote: I don't care how much CC Magus/Engies have; they are rDPS classes who should be able to fill a spot as DPS in any setup (6-man or WB) and not just be relegated to CC bots.

They should be able to fill a spot as a dps. But they can be made viable with other stuff than just raw damage. Where as you arguement about CC makes it sound like that a dps is only about damage damage and more damage. CC could help them to be viable and could give them a certain edge over other dps classes. BUT because healers and tanks already have quite a lot of CC, the extra CC engineers and maguses give doesn't do too much.

grumcajs wrote: spammable melee snare

Sorry but you just made my day.

In my opinion the insta cast turret tactic is a must have in any build, whether it be in a rift build where getting off the AoE KD asap, and reducing setup time of pulls is critical. Or when you are trying to do a ST dps build, being able to keep up with the flow of battle is important, the amount of DPS and ground lost while constantly resummoning your pet is too hurtful if it's on a 2 sec cast.

Stationary DPS is a failed archetype in this game.

I love getting into the thick of battle to apply my mighty snare on all the WLs and WHs...only to die 2 seconds after!