T4: Some feedback on keeps.

[Rebuke]

Communication is what puts guild warbands/groups ahead of any pug warband/groups. Also guild groups/warbands are way more focused. Saying that a Guild Party/Warband is as good as a pug is rediculous.

Tier3 was a good example, Tempest Wolves Guild Leader leading pugs on their TS, they still struggled for weeks to beat Kings Own, even with higher numbers in their warbands. Kings Own had more focus, better communication, and more reliable players.

KO never did anything larger than 12 mans on live (at least the 2 years I was in it). This stuff was new for us aswell. We only have a somewhat stable 12-18 man going once level cap was 32. I know because I recruited 75% of this rotten guild

[th3gatekeeper]

I think they are aware of the current state of RvR and have plans to address things. My 2 cents (which I have posted in another thread) would be:

- create a "siege tower" that can be purchased and rolled up alongside a wall and provide a means of "skipping" the outer door. This forced defense to defend TWO points as opposed to 1.

- Change BOs so that you DONT have to wait 3:00 to "lock" them, but merely once captured they lock for 3-5 minutes. Period. To create more contention around BOs. The majority of fights should be around BOs and not the keep. The keep should be a "last stand" of sorts. My own opinion is that defending a keep should be harder than attacking HOWEVER defending a keep by re-capping BOs should be where a large amount of focus is.

- Each BO should provide a zone wide "reward" for capping it divided amongst everyone in the lake. This doesnt have to be BIG, but something like 1000 renown and 500-600 influence. If you have 50 people in the zone, each BO tick would give only 20 renown and 10-12 influence. If you have only 10 people in the zone, it would give 100 renown and 50-60 influence.

- BOs should also provide specific "bonuses" to the zone. For instance, TWO of the BOs should reduce/increase the doors HP (one for inner, one for outer I think). Another BO should increase the HP of siege equipment. Another increases damage of siege equipment. So lets say a warband is attacking a keep. Rather than post up behind a wall (since your siege equip damage is lessened AND it has less HP - assuming you dont own the BOs) you might send a "scount party" to recapture the "outer door" BO, causing the door become much harder to capture. Or you might send one to the "siege damage" BO to increase the damage of Oil... Each BO would provide specific buffs/debuffs to the lake and would impact the play dramatically since they would only be locked for a short time.

These changes would put focus back on BOs, make defense difficult to do and provide MORE incentives to fight over some specific BOs rather than post up behind a keep.

OH, MOST important: ALL rewards (kill influence, renown, bag rolls) should be LAKE WIDE! So that players DONT all wanna zerg, so that everyone does want to actually participate in the warband... The only thing required for this would be an added contribution system specific for this type of play in which, BO captures provide "contribution" along with door damage AND Lord Damage. (healers would get contr based on healing like they do in PQs). The contribution would be used to create a "treshhold" in which you need over X amount to be eligible for the BO ticks and keep take ticks... So you completely avoid moochers who have done nothing.

[roadkillrobin]

Communication is what puts guild warbands/groups ahead of any pug warband/groups. Also guild groups/warbands are way more focused. Saying that a Guild Party/Warband is as good as a pug is rediculous.

Tier3 was a good example, Tempest Wolves Guild Leader leading pugs on their TS, they still struggled for weeks to beat Kings Own, even with higher numbers in their warbands. Kings Own had more focus, better communication, and more reliable players.

KO never did anything larger than 12 mans on live (at least the 2 years I was in it). This stuff was new for us aswell. We only have a somewhat stable 12-18 man going once level cap was 32. I know because I recruited 75% of this rotten guild

No but members from Crimson, Red Guards, Champions of the Gods and list goes on, all were competative warband guilds on live wich you manage to recruit. I completly dissagree with Mordread tho. People who plays tighter, who are comunicating better and have experience are gonna play better as a unit then the people who lack any of those. A PuG warband leader will NEVER defeat a group like this unless you caught em AFK. It has nothing to do with gear.

[Grobbok]

still taking keeps is too long and hard in main time.
it should be not so hard to take zone and go to next one, but now defending is better the attacking and we stuck in middle zones

[th3gatekeeper]

still taking keeps is too long and hard in main time.
it should be not so hard to take zone and go to next one, but now defending is better the attacking and we stuck in middle zones

Which is why I proposed what I did. If you control ALL the BOs, things like Oil will deal much less damage... Things like the Ram will deal more... Things like their Outer and Inner doors will have less HP and as a side - you can post a siege tower up and get a force inside their walls quickly to overrun them.

After playing some Tier 2 pvp the last few days on an alt. One of the things I realized is that most t2 fights were much smaller and faster than t3 or t4 fights. For one, you only have 1 set of doors. But I think primarily it was less people in such a small space.

We could still do things like "tank walls" once the door was down, but it was much harder since there was less AoE we could spam in the doorway. During T4 on my Chosen even (beefy tank) I cant even stay @ the door or in a doorway for more than a few seconds or I get NUKED. The ranged AoE and sheer number of players creates such a dangerous funnel, its nearly impossible to push through the outer door if there is any decent defending force to contend with.

I think this is what makes the siege tower such an appealing idea. You can get a force to attack from the side, break up the defense and make way for the frontal warband(s) to push through the door.

[Tesq]

if are going to link something to flag it would be pointless unless the 3 flag rule get changed, dosen't matter how what you do if you get 2 flag the siege interrupt so you will basically benefith from 1 flag or no siege withsuch system. I would prefer the 3 flag requirement going away as fast as the new system could be implemented anyway.

[drmordread]

I still do not understand why people are trying to change the RvR system, when we have not even played this RvR system.
It is being introduced in small pieces, playtested and debugged. then part 2, rinse and repeat, then part 3, rinse and repeat, etc etc etc.

Do I Like what is going on over the last 2 weeks? NOPEEEE not at all.

But I also know that we have not seen the full picture yet.

[Maldach]

Spent 2 hours today sieging the destro keep in Dragonwake. My WP healed for millions of hp's and ended up with a bugged bag. I won't waste my time on that **** again. Ever.

You got no bag.
Check the scoreboard next time. You were messaged you scored first, but didn't.
All that was bugged, was the message itself, not the bag, or chest.

I know what the bugged bag issue is, that's not the complaint. The problem is grinding for 2+ hours on a siege as a healer (non stop casting the entire time) and getting nothing from it aside from 10% or so influence in T4 Elf.

It's a waste of time. Sometimes fun, but open field battles over BO's require more skill and keep the battle flowing over the maps. Keep sieges are bogged down farming spots for defenders. Hell, we (Order) were running around Praag taking BO's this weekend and Destro folks would run up and ask us if we were going for the keep. Not fight us at the BO's, they just wanted the farm, none of the fight. Just sit in the keep and wait for the farm.

Put rewards back for BO captures.

[roadkillrobin]

Cannons deal way to much damage atm aswell.
1200-1800 umitigrable dmg every 5 sec is basicly like whole group getting hit by a morale abillity. Ad any ranged dmg from keep walls or even worse a bombgroup warband pushing out and it's pretty much Game Over. Defending is just free ticks and bags atm ....it's to a point were they might need to consider if they should do another Anahilator wipe if you ask me.

[Vayra]

One other thing....
Guild WB's are over rated. I can take a wb of pugs, in a pvt wb and without TSpeak or anything other comm program, make that WB a lot of RR.

You do not need guild wb's
You do not need alliance wb's
You do not need communication programs.

They can be fun to do, yes, I agree, but you do not need them.

prbly. all depends on composition. enough healers, guards for dds and a leader who manages the groups and gives comprehendable order and any pug is prbly. as good as a guild wb.

I'm sorry but no. A well-led pug warband can be good, I should know I led enough pug warbands on live working alognside guild wb's. However, I also led guild warbands and the quality of a well-led guild warband is on an entirely different level. The simple fact of having everyone on voice comms and being able to dictate everyone's spec and knowing their playstyles simply makes the guild wb so much more powerful that it's ridiculous to even compare them. I don't think my guild ever wiped to equal numbers of pugs, or even to pugs outnumbering us by less than 50%, most such encounters would leave us with no more than a handful of deaths if any and them all being dead, simply because of the coordination voice allows over text. Now maybe my guild was an exception (we were one of the top destro guilds on Karak Norn), but any guild that plays together a lot and fields an almost full warband and have people willing to listen to the leader should never struggle against pugs.