Return of Reckoning

Bretin wrote: Right now the marauder doesn't rely on any mdps and he is able to create more pressure than any other dps bc of his kit. The ic hd is the most important debuff when it comes to pressure. Without an ic hd he would finally rely on a different class e.g. Choppa, WE, mdok. With a choppa the common 2/2/2 destru setup would have more damage and become more vulnerable.

It would nerf the double Mara setup but it would buff the Mara Choppa setup. I have a feeling that Mara/Choppa might already be stronger because you already have the 4 oh-**** buttons so might as well run more offensive. Needs to be tested first ofc

It doesn't really matter in this discussion, but you misunderstood me. My point was exactly that : IB cant be cleansed by dok, so he cannot help to mask the heal debuff, i.e. dok will cleanse the ailment/hex whether or not the target is cursed.

Your DD should be perfectly capable of burying the healdebuff by himself

I don't play healer so that might sound ignorant, but how exactly should order approach cleansing if it all?

You can't reliably cleanse Healdebuffs from targets at all. Burying healdebuffs is not hard. DoKs can technically remove it with M2 but the HD can be reapplied rather easily with 5s CD if you want.

Jaycub wrote:Another thing that came up in our discussions is destros ability to bury order deep in debuffs in their meta comp.

BO AoE snare instantly puts 2 ailments on everyone it hits, chosen has crippling strikes, mara is just shitting out ailments like crazy. It just seems kinda pointless to even try cleansing against that if you are wasting a GCD to remove a 25% disorient or a x1 rend etc...

And like it was brought up WP can't cleanse any of those since they are ailments.


I don't play healer so that might sound ignorant, but how exactly should order approach cleansing if it all?

This is a trivial point, but the BO only applies one removable effect per application of its AoE snare. The tactic component (the part that actually snares people) is classified by the client as a Debuff, and so it can't be cleansed by any means.

An uncleansable AoE snare is a nice feather in the BO's cap, though.

So looking into morale management skills...

Order:
SM - Intimidating Blow / Ability that removes 100 morale on a 5 sec CD
Knight - Solar Flare / M4 removals all morale of those hit
AM - Bolstering Boon / Tactic that gives 250 morale per boon of hysh cast (2 sec cast)
WL - Close Bond / Tactic that gives 50 morale every 5 seconds as long as pet is out... lose 600 morale if pet dies.
WH - Vitriolic Judgement / Tactic that has a 25% chance to remove 225 morale on flanked hits\
BW - Embrace the Flames / 200 morale on crit, 3 sec CD

Destro:
BO - Youz see me blok dat? / 4% of morale bar gained on block (144 morale), 3 sec CD
BO - Looking for Opportunity / 6% of morale bar lost when hitting a target with clobber (216 morale), no CD
Ch - Destined for Victory / 200 morale gained on block, 3 sec CD
Shaman - Get movin! / 150 morale gained by party member when they proc ere we go / 10 sec CD, modable w/ tactic that allow you to proc the damage twice for 300 morale total
Mara - Wave of Terror / Targets hit do not gain morale for 5 seconds - 10 sec CD
Mara - Crushing Blows / When in monstro all attacks have a 25% chance to remove 225 morale
Zealot - By Tzeentch's Will / TIncreases your morale by 200 every time you critically heal - 3 sec CD
SH - Strength in numbas / Anytime a groupmate hits something you have a 25% chance to gain 300 morale over 3 seconds, 3 sec CD

I could be missing some, but it becomes pretty obvious destro as a whole has much better morale gain and burn mechanics. Having that clobber tactic on order would be pretty sweet :^). Most of the morale tactics are gimmicky or have arbitrary negatives attached to them which removes any viability they would have. The WL tactic has to up there for contender of worst tactic in the game.

Jaycub wrote: I could be missing some, but it becomes pretty obvious destro as a whole has much better morale gain and burn mechanics.

Yes. Is that an issue or would you prefer to play chess?

I'm sure that's some kind of fallacy but I'm too lazy to google :^)

Jaycub wrote: Knight - Solar Flare / M4 removals all morale of those hit

Maybe boost the KotBS morale (with an AM i guess) and have him strip all the morale from BO/Chosen (if he can catch a Dok too that would be awesome) then focus a target with everything you have. There was a thread some weeks ago where people actually discussed KotBS being able to get to M3 pretty fast (30 seconds without Bolstering Boon, according to this post: https://returnofreckoning.com/forum/vie ... 10#p154750).

Of course i'm not saying this is the best/only/most viable counter to DfV/YSMBD. But i remember several KotBS that ran that M4 on live instead of ID and it could be pretty annoying sometimes.

I could see it working in ORvR, but having your healer pump single target heals into your knight just isn't viable in 6v6, let alone having an AM in your party to begin with lol.

I just think order needs something on the level of LFO to have some viable counterplay.

Jaycub wrote:I could see it working in ORvR, but having your healer pump single target heals into your knight just isn't viable in 6v6, let alone having an AM in your party to begin with lol.

I just think order needs something on the level of LFO to have some viable counterplay.

As i said, i don't see it as viable/best counter. It just came to my mind and wanted to point it out, since you were asking for a counter to DfV/YSMBD.

I guess the reason LFO is stronger than IB is because it is a core tactic, while IB is a core skill.

Jaycub wrote:I'm sure that's some kind of fallacy but I'm too lazy to google :^)

It is a fallacy, specifically strawman - implying that having a problem with a particular mechanic being much stronger on one side than the other means that you are seeking to mirror absolutely everything in the game in response.

Penril wrote:Maybe boost the KotBS morale (with an AM i guess) and have him strip all the morale from BO/Chosen.

Not even worth thinking about it. Whether is the AM a viable healer in a melee 6 man comp nor do you want to cripple your kotbs by speccing such a sht. ID is the g2g morale 4.

edit: in a rdps setup - where the AM is your first choice - slice through is mandatory so the build again is not worth thinking about. besides that would the AM cripple his heal output by slotting the tactic.