Return of Reckoning

roadkillrobin wrote:
Kotbs, Arcing Swing
SM, WoDS, Eather Dance, and Pheonx's Wing. Tactics: GWM
IB's Grudge-Born Fury, Cave-In, Tactics: GAM
Chosen, Rending Blade, Tactic; Oppressing Blows
BO: Da Big Un Tactics: GABC
BG, Crimson Death.

First off we talked about rending blade, if our purpose is to apply crippling strikes blast wave is better cause its only 5 feet smaller and is 360

IBs dont spec great weapon mastery or grudge born fury

Arching swing is a meh wounds debuff that is not worth droping everything including a free 10% chance to crit heal and crit hit, x2 kotbs is only worth running if your party is running x2 kotbs ptherwise if you want a wounds debuff bring 2h slayer

there is no tactic specifically designed to buff da big un and even then its a shiity ability thats only good for procing bellows and even then big swing does it better

these are the 2 builds for 2h IB:
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=ib; ... :;;0:0:0:0:
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=ib; ... :;;0:0:0:0:

Crimson death is awful right now 5s is too short of a time frame for your team to use effectively and so your dropping your 5s kd for nothing, bringing it back to 10s and so 100% uptime and it will be a good ability

Dreadspectre wrote: Honestly I think Big Brawlin' should apply to Da Big 'Un, not Big Swing. Deny SNB from it and give 2H BO a niche in providing the 40% aoe Snare.

Oh god no plz 360 AoE 30ft snare compensates for my NA ping

TenTonHammer wrote:

roadkillrobin wrote:
Kotbs, Arcing Swing
SM, WoDS, Eather Dance, and Pheonx's Wing. Tactics: GWM
IB's Grudge-Born Fury, Cave-In, Tactics: GAM
Chosen, Rending Blade, Tactic; Oppressing Blows
BO: Da Big Un Tactics: GABC
BG, Crimson Death.

First off we talked about rending blade, if our purpose is to apply crippling strikes blast wave is better cause its only 5 feet smaller and is 360

IBs dont spec great weapon mastery or grudge born fury

Arching swing is a meh wounds debuff that is not worth droping everything including a free 10% chance to crit heal and crit hit, x2 kotbs is only worth running if your party is running x2 kotbs ptherwise if you want a wounds debuff bring 2h slayer

there is no tactic specifically designed to buff da big un and even then its a shiity ability thats only good for procing bellows and even then big swing does it better

these are the 2 builds for 2h IB:
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=ib; ... :;;0:0:0:0:
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=ib; ... :;;0:0:0:0:

Crimson death is awful right now 5s is too short of a time frame for your team to use effectively and so your dropping your 5s kd for nothing, bringing it back to 10s and so 100% uptime and it will be a good ability

Dreadspectre wrote: Honestly I think Big Brawlin' should apply to Da Big 'Un, not Big Swing. Deny SNB from it and give 2H BO a niche in providing the 40% aoe Snare.

Oh god no plz 360 AoE 30ft snare compensates for my NA ping

Yeah I didn't realize that Big Swing was 360 when I wrote that, thought it was a cone like Big Un'.

But we need to discuss 2H as a broader topic in this thread so let us shift away from my terrible suggestion haha.

Dreadspectre wrote:.

This would transfer over to increasing 2H MDPS builds as well which....is maybe a good thing? Haha.

No Slayer, Choppa and WL all do great damage with 2hs

WL alone dosnt need more free damage, i can already hear Bretin and his pantheon of 6v6 gods coming from the heavens to post with extreme prejudice

even if you leave out WL and only buff other great weapons, choppas and slayers share their 2h weapons with black orcs and ibs meaning they will be getting unnecessary buff

TenTonHammer wrote:

Dreadspectre wrote:.

This would transfer over to increasing 2H MDPS builds as well which....is maybe a good thing? Haha.

No Slayer, Choppa and WL all do great damage with 2hs

WL alone dosnt need more free damage, i can already hear Bretin and his pantheon of 6v6 gods coming from the heavens to post with extreme prejudice

even if you leave out WL and only buff other great weapons, choppas and slayers share their 2h weapons with black orcs and ibs meaning they will be getting unnecessary buff

Sounds like another reason to make Focused Offense a GW only tactic to give 2H's a greater DPS presence then without affecting MDPS that can use 2H already.

It's a garbage skill as it is anyway, I feel like a lot of tactic in this game need redesigning. There should be no 100%(or damn near) bad tactics for classes.

Can anyone remind me the debuff duration of the Arcing Swing? Was it 20?

More ideas:

Focused Offense: While wielding a GW, anytime your Guard target takes damage your damage is increased by 20% for 5 seconds.

Encourages the role of guarding still since you are a Tank class while also giving increased damage output for 2H.


Also another idea:

Taunt: Increases damage to opponent by 30%. If wielding a GW this changes to 50% increase

This also encourages and rewards using your class specific mechanics.

I think ideally each tank should have a DPS tree with a 2H defining ability near the top, a defensive tree again with a shield ability near the top, and a middle ground / utility tree both can draw from. That way all trees are viable in any spec at least in some capacity as long as you keep the exclusive abilities near the top.

13 point abilities should be the crown jewels of each tree and be defining abilities, this means you have 9 major choices being made (Tanky 2h tank that dishes out good damage but lacks utility, Utility tank that isn't particularly tanky or offensive, etc...) Tactics both core and mastery should follow suit.

Taking a look a SM you have the hoeth tree with WW as a 13 point ability and I think that's a good example of a what a defining ability is in terms of utility. Same goes for ED in the Khaine tree as a good example of a 2H/DPS 13 point ability. However SM's def tree falls short with the now 13 point ability being crushing advance which is obviously a worse choice compared to WW or ED. Not to mention redirected force is just pure garbage for a mastery ability and is something you have to climb over to get there or to the KD, and that isn't exclusive to that tree or the SM as a class. Bad abilities or tactics lower in the mastery trees will ultimately hurt spec diversity just as much as having bad 13 point abilities.

Changes that reflect this in combination with possibly a new 2h only core ability to mirror the shields HtL, and maybe changes to 2H in general should put tanks in good spot spec diversity wise. And again I am not advocating for tanks to be anything other than tanks. Just that 2h tanks should represent a different playstyle within the tank archetype, and that they will bring unique things to a group that could make them valuable in certain group setups that benefit from those things.

Barring a complete redesign of the mastery trees, it'd be neat I think if 2H tanks were given a unique ability or method to counter Guard in some manner, and particularly SnB Guard.

TenTonHammer wrote:

Dreadspectre wrote:.

This would transfer over to increasing 2H MDPS builds as well which....is maybe a good thing? Haha.

No Slayer, Choppa and WL all do great damage with 2hs

WL alone dosnt need more free damage, i can already hear Bretin and his pantheon of 6v6 gods coming from the heavens to post with extreme prejudice

even if you leave out WL and only buff other great weapons, choppas and slayers share their 2h weapons with black orcs and ibs meaning they will be getting unnecessary buff

Well there is this thread too: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=10774

Azarael proposed switching 2h bonus from block strikethrough to Parry strikethrough. Which might make 2h a little more viable. Thus they "even out" when a 2H attacks a DW player.

I have to agree here with the entire topic however and I really think the solution surrounds the "Focused Offense" tactic. Right now you just give up FAR too much for FAR too little and this is the only "big" thing you have as a tank to boost your damage....

I really think this ability (Focused Offense) should merely REQUIRE a 2h, NOT decrease armor at all, and increase your damage by 20%-25+.

In going 2h, you already give up chance to block with a shield, so thats punishment there. Then you ALSO lose out on other tactic bonuses, in order to get this damage increase. For many players who are looking at offensive tank style, that tactic they are giving up is probably another damage dealing tactic... So its a loss of "damage and armor" for a 15% pickup in damage.

Making it require 2H means it comes with some "loss" built in as you lose block chance and lose access to hold the line.... When you look at other classes tactics like "Divine Fury" (Look at AM or WP as an example) which provides 25% more damage at the loss of something else.... which makes it more fair there.


This would be a 10% damage buff over what it does now (15% -> 25%), combined with no armor loss BUT requires a 2H to use so you cant have SnB tanks running Focused Offense.

This would make 2H tanks much more appealing IMO as now they can deal "enough" damage to be a threat. As it is now, most people just ignore the 2H tank because its really easy to heal through their damage...

Are we trying to make 2H tanks = mdps? Or are we trying to give them a unique role?

2 very different things.