Balance Section

[bloodi]

Just as an example, here is Daigo Umehara, multiple times world champion in Sf2 ST, Sf4 and Guilty Gear on what fighting games should be:

http://beastnote.blogspot.com.es/2015/0 ... 41231.html

I dont expect you to know about fighting games but for the ones who do, you can see he is talking nonsense.

Mind this guy is not only considered good, he is so good that has been talking Americans money in fighting games since 2003 and even before and just this year was finalist on the Capcom Cup for Usf4.

Yet letting him balance anything would be idiotic.

I know its just an example but its just to portrait that high level people can be so above everyone else that they have 0 idea of what is good or bad for a game and will only think about what is good for them.

[Azarael]

4. I don't believe that 5-6 people who know what they're talking about won't know what the fixes are.

You might want at least 12 skilled people so things can be tested in grp combat.
Those have to get along with each other well, maybe the main difficulty.

This is absolutely true, and something that we want to get set up.

[mursie]

I'd take egotism over noobs any day.

They're almost as bad. Noobs give you irrelevant and badly considered opinions, egotists and selfish players distort the truth to benefit themselves.

Someone can be very good at the game and still be the exact kind of person you wouldn't want on a balance team. Equally, someone less able to play the game can understand it just fine as well.

You give me hope.

[Bretin]

As it should be. One of my biggest hates is people coming to the forum and saying X is fine, yet the number of decent people you see in game actually using X can be counted on the fingers of one foot.

may i ask what you are aiming for? once you said you think a 6 man group is a balanced environment which should be taken as foundation when it comes to balance changes. if the majority of the playerbase is not able to make X work but X is actually pretty strong in terms of the chosen balance environment, but requires more than Y to pull off, will you go to change X to a more casual friendly lvl? that's exactly what happend to city sieges and tovl, they became casual friendly and now you have threads about changing it back to what it was.

let's take an Swordmaster for example: he was considered to be UP and still is if you ask the majority of the playerbase, yet you have people like Wingz who bumped it to a top tier class and proofed how good he can be in the described environment, so that at least the more competitive groups realized his impact. casuals on the other hand cry about the kotbs, even tho his impact in terms of deciding a group fight is less than the one of a proper played SM. the kotbs is just super easy to pull off, same as slayer and sw. that's why you have these "nerf range kd" and "nerf EA+DT" topics. do you wanna make the classes more casual friendly, so everyone can success or do you wanna make them competitive and include them into a working meta system with some demand?

[mursie]

yet you have people like Wingz who bumped SM to a top tier class and proofed how good he can be in the described environment, so that at least the more competitive groups realized his impact. casuals on the other hand cry about the kotbs, even tho his impact in terms of deciding a group fight is less than the one of a proper played SM.

In my opinion, I do not think anything has been proven. Wingz could play any class, and with his coordinated group, would win MOST of the time. This doesn't prove anything except that we are on a private server, with a very small population, where very few organized coordinated groups actually play.

For clarification: I consider an organized coordinated group to be a group with six players playing designated optimal archetype roles and have played those designated archetype roles for some time. Not just four,five, or six guildies with completely random composition logging on and grouping together.

[Azarael]

@Bretin: My view is that balance is top-down. If we can make a class work better in lower tiers without compromising its depth and viability at better levels of play, we should wherever we can. But high tier play is the most important thing. Risk/reward and power/effort for classes at higher levels of play should be as even as possible. If that means that there are imbalances in lower tiers of play, so be it - as long as those imbalances are not easily rectified and are the result of inferior play, that is fine.

To look at your example with the SM - that's just an example of people having their heads stuck in the past and attempting to apply old live's meta to the present RoR one. This is why I haven't touched any topic talking about SM (and I guess why no more have been created by anyone else). KotBS, however, I regard as an issue, if it's too basic to justify its power.

In my opinion, I do not think anything has been proven. Wingz could play any class, and with his coordinated group, would win MOST of the time. This doesn't prove anything except that we are on a private server, with a very small population, where very few organized coordinated groups actually play.

I bear this firmly in mind and it's partially addressed in the balance forum rules. If your group is good enough to beat everyone, much less is proved than if you are fighting a group of equal skill to yourselves.

[Shadowgurke]

Because people like you exist to explain why they're talking crap, and people like us exist to make sure that they can't just continue to post the same thing after you've disproved it. This is the foundation of debate.

So you're just gonna ban Tesq then?

If you want balance, only allow 3-4 of the best players of each realm comment, of the level of Bretin, etc. Make the forum private. There are only a handful of people who actually understand the game and classes, but many who think they do.

There are several reasons for this. First we just don't have enough players. 3-4 players per realm means 8 players are going to control the whole balancing, which could easily lead to self interest over actual balance. 8 players would also mean that some classes might not be well-represented.

Secondly, improvements need creativity and not just game understanding. From what I can tell that will be the main focus of the new balance discussion. People discussing how to change a problem and "pros" giving their input on those ideas.

[DefinitelyNotWingz]

Spoiler:

yet you have people like Wingz who bumped SM to a top tier class and proofed how good he can be in the described environment, so that at least the more competitive groups realized his impact. casuals on the other hand cry about the kotbs, even tho his impact in terms of deciding a group fight is less than the one of a proper played SM.

In my opinion, I do not think anything has been proven. Wingz could play any class, and with his coordinated group, would win MOST of the time. This doesn't prove anything except that we are on a private server, with a very small population, where very few organized coordinated groups actually play.

For clarification: I consider an organized coordinated group to be a group with six players playing designated optimal archetype roles and have played those designated archetype roles for some time. Not just four,five, or six guildies with completely random composition logging on and grouping together.

No, it is not about winning.
Wingz and some other players prove that SM deserves a spot in grp, strengthening the setup not making it weaker, while the majority of the private server calls SM a gimp class or free immunity.
Same with BO.

[Bretin]

thanks for your statement.

I bear this firmly in mind and it's partially addressed in the balance forum rules. If your group is good enough to beat everyone, much less is proved than if you are fighting a group of equal skill to yourselves.

but then again the test server with 12 people is even more important because you would have the option to let those people circle through groups. they don't have to play in their premade to test balance changes if this would lead to an group imbalance. what is important is, that those people play their main role, Wingz for example on the tank archetype.

[rmpl]

A good player in a good group can make any class look good.