Recent Topics

Ads

[Split] Marauder discussion

Chat about everything else - ask questions, share stories, or just hang out.
User avatar
Azarael
Posts: 5332

Re: [Split] Marauder discussion

Post#281 » Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:02 am

Ok, lets take the black guard for example then

A black guard can equip a twohander, run a tactic to give them a nearly permanent 50% outgoing healing debuff, and not be detauntable while being able to keep a target locked into combat, removing their armor and debuffing various other stats.

At what level of damage dealing potential does a DPS BG become the more valid choice for a group to run over another form of DPS due to your utility from CC and various buffs and debuffs.
Where do you draw the line?

This is the basic argument we have with the marauder right now, every destro team basically must run a marauder. You are a fool not to at this point, it has the best abilities in the game at this level in terms of utility and the damage is respectable, it's not as heavy as a WL, but the debuffs boost your other team mates damage output into the next tier of awesome.

If we dialed those debuffs back then you'd be better off just running said DPS black guard because his utility would outshine the Marauders now.
The line, for me, is drawn when the class is both internally and externally balanced. Tank internal balance is flawed in the sense that even DPS tanks prefer to play S&B because there's no benefit to speccing two handed. Tank external balance... well, let me say that I would be very surprised if we removed Marauder from the equation and ended up with a meta that included DPS Blackguards in the melee DPS slots.

Sure, if it were me designing this, tanks with a 2h out would be sacrificing some utility and defense for more damage, as they should - leaving them somewhere viable between MDPS and defensive tanks. Tanks with S&B would never have been allowed to be valid DPS options.

I do read a lot when DPS tanks are discussed that "oh, your damage will be good for a tank but it won't compare to an MDPS" or about the difference between sustained damage and burst damage in the context of tank vs MDPS. As long as this remains the case I don't see the problem.
Do we really need another "hey, lets just cross guard tank train and never die" meta to come around again?
No, we don't. Equally, if any changes were made which DID bring about such a meta, that would be the point of doing serious testing.

One thing to remember with less professional projects such as this one is that we do have the liberty to screw something up and revert it within a short timeframe. If, at any point in the future, tanks were to be changed such that they became a total joke, AND that happened to make it past focused testing, we could revert the changes immediately rather than make people wait weeks or months for a patch to do it.

Ads
Landaren
Posts: 226

Re: [Split] Marauder discussion

Post#282 » Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:11 am

Im all for changing things, I know that twohanders are an utter mess. Its a massive net loss, for a minimal damage increase. I just know this game, Ive seen what happens when you try to make 1 thing better for an archetype. It often leaves other classes displaced completely

another great example of this would be AM/Sham. When tombs/chalis were buffed everyone ran a group heal spec WP/DoK. AM's and Shams were kicked from their seats and left to rot for a long time.

User avatar
Azarael
Posts: 5332

Re: [Split] Marauder discussion

Post#283 » Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:15 am

Yeah, I know. That risk exists, and it's happened already in the game's history. Thankfully, we /know/ it's a risk should two hand tanks ever come up for modification.

The optimal method would be to make two hand tanks interact with the game in a novel manner which deals with existing issues (such an example being what was mentioned in a previous thread about having 2h tanks interact with Guard on enemies in a different way.)

foof
Posts: 142

Re: [Split] Marauder discussion

Post#284 » Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:47 am

Azarael wrote:Yeah, I know. That risk exists, and it's happened already in the game's history. Thankfully, we /know/ it's a risk should two hand tanks ever come up for modification.

The optimal method would be to make two hand tanks interact with the game in a novel manner which deals with existing issues (such an example being what was mentioned in a previous thread about having 2h tanks interact with Guard on enemies in a different way.)
Another idea would be to give the anti-detaunt tactic to all tanks, as a core tactic, and make it require a 2h.

Then they would have a specific role in being the only un-detauntable DPS. While their overall DPS may be lower than real DPS classes, it would give them a specific DPS niche.

User avatar
Euan
Posts: 416

Re: [Split] Marauder discussion

Post#285 » Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:48 am

Penril wrote:
Genisaurus wrote:
Penril wrote:Also, it doesn't matter if half the community can't even remember what classes actually were OP/UP in WAR. What really matters is: do the Devs and Core testers remember?
Because we act unilaterally and without regard to what the community wants? I get your point, that at the end of the day the line in the sand is drawn by the people with fancy-colored names, and maybe that also give our words more weight, but I would like to think that we're aware of our own shortcomings. I played with, IMO, one of the better WLs on Gorfang for years, and so I can say with some confidence that T4 WLs are at best sub-par. But if we were to discuss specific balance changes for the class, I would have to go to him/the community.
You can't balance RoR based on the community because, frankly, most of the community are bad or lack knowledge about more than one class (sometimes they don't even know their own classes). I'm sorry and i don't want to offend anyone, but that's the sad truth.

Just look at my BO/SM poll: Several people posted there saying "BOs are fine, they don't need anything" (even some guys who played rr100 BO's). If you make changes based solely on community feedback, you would be seeing nerfs to Engies (so many people complained about them and their M2!) WL's (dat pounce), BW and Sorc (melee trains destroy them in T4) and so on.

That's why asked if the Devs remember. I do: Slayer/KotBS/Mara/Dok/WP are OP. BO/SM/Eng/Magus/WL/AM/Shaman need some love. WH/WE/BG/IB/SW/SH/Chosen/BW/Sorc/Choppa are fine. It's been like that for almost 5 years and i don't see any reason this won't be the case once T4 arrives in RoR.
You can add yourself to the list. This is RR 80 not RR 100. Marauder is not overpowered for all the things mentioned in this thread, if you want to continue this delusion along with the rest of the community, go right ahead, it doesn't change things.
Is this a shitpost? Let me know through personal message.

User avatar
Vigfuss
Posts: 383

Re: [Split] Marauder discussion

Post#286 » Tue Oct 13, 2015 1:20 am

Buffing DPS tanks is not a good idea. The good players will still play S&B most of the time, and all the MDPS who rely on Pug groups will be cannon fodder (they already are for the most part). Buffing tanks should mean buffing their group utility in the case of those that need it, not their dps.

Also, Penril knows what he's talking about.
Penril wrote: That's why asked if the Devs remember. I do: Slayer/KotBS/Mara/Dok/WP are OP. BO/SM/Eng/Magus/WL/AM/Shaman need some love. WH/WE/BG/IB/SW/SH/Chosen/BW/Sorc/Choppa are fine. It's been like that for almost 5 years and i don't see any reason this won't be the case once T4 arrives in RoR.
Fusscle of Critical Acclaim

User avatar
Xaun
Posts: 230

Re: [Split] Marauder discussion

Post#287 » Tue Oct 13, 2015 1:52 am

Can I ask the Devs, under current thinking anyway, which of the other renown abilities will eventually be available (we know Trivial Blows wont, but what about Resolute Defense, Cleansing Wind, Hardy Concessions, Futile Strikes or Quick Escape in their 1.4.8 version or otherwise)

I'm glad we are talking about the endgame meta balance, and for the most part I'm sure we are all largely assuming we are basing off things as they ended when War shut down (in terms of abilities, mastered etc). But before we talk about balance it would help to know which renown tools might be available even if loosely, as some of the provided some counters (and/or boosts) that were lacking within a classes abilities

Luth
Posts: 2840

Re: [Split] Marauder discussion

Post#288 » Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:57 am

Azarael wrote: One thing I feel this game has always suffered from is players considering that if a class has ONE valid spec, that class is fine and needs no work doing with it. Sometimes you have to settle for that in the grand scheme of things, but this remains crappy internal class balance. Slayer's a good example of this.
Nothing to see here; move along. :mrgreen:

Ads
User avatar
Coryphaus
Posts: 2230

Re: [Split] Marauder discussion

Post#289 » Tue Oct 13, 2015 5:00 am

i still feel that 2h slayer is legit, the problem is that its completely overshadowed by AoE slayer
Image

User avatar
wos
Posts: 218

Re: [Split] Marauder discussion

Post#290 » Tue Oct 13, 2015 10:08 am

ok lets put it this way tank kill dps/dps kill healer/healer kill tank

tank can change their archetype to dps tank to kill healer,
dps can change their archetype to tanky to kill mdps, tanks, healers
healer can change their archetype to dps to kill heal

these are the 1 and 2 mastery paths but then war has the OP spec which is third mastery tree
this is the most powerful or gives your class a major advantage or a specially job

tank in this become stronger against there major weakness which is magic and get some cool new roll spells that go with their given jobs by the developers/law of warhammer

healers in the third spec become both heals and dps so combat heals which as solo make them really strong against most classes and changes it up abit from dps/healing spec and get some cool new roll spells that go with their given jobs by the developers/law of warhammer

rdps mostly get more mobile, tougher and can come down in to medium to front row fighters and some time more group support and get some cool new roll spells that go with their given jobs by the developers/law of warhammer

mdps usually just get better at killing and get some cool new roll spells that go with their given jobs by the developers/law of warhammer

well thats my interpretation of the hole thing

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests