(Mythic) origins of balance

[footpatrol2]

So as a race high elves can drop spirit resistances to near zero and their main damage type is spirit damage doesn't grab you as maybe being part of the original design? In addition a double whisper wind group can make some of the hardest hitting abilities that High elves have spammable. This still exists today.

This is not proof enough for you? Thats just a small hiccup. How much listing do you need? Or does listing not count? Do you think that those abilities are put there randomly? This is not a character attack. I don't understand what your not seeing. Maybe I'm not being clear enough and your helping me be more clear. I'm really not trying just to convince you either but other non commenting readers.

How do you think this game was balanced? Do you have an explanation on why grimnir's fury is there? Do you have an explanation on why winds of insanity is there? I can explain them through my perspective. I'm curious why do you think those abilities are there? Do you have an explanation?

I want to know what mythic was thinking in its game design. If you have a better explanation please share it with me because I generally want to know. I'm open to being wrong. I don't have a source I'm just looking at the abilities and have been wondering for nearly 10 years on why they were put there. Maybe we can have a positive discussion on this. Maybe you have a better explanation.

I can basically do this with any of the racials if I know enough about them.

[Tklees]

One of your main points is that what your theory is mythics original intent. My question is, why trust the intent of the ppl who gave us the aoe fest, bad stat allotment (WH finishers requiring balistics), and overall broken melee heal archetype?

This isn't live. It's RoR. Please try and answer just that question.

[footpatrol2]

This game was pushed out the door WAY too early. (100% NO SOURCE pure guess---->) Probably due to Blizzard paying off some corporate person to force this game to come out early. That corporate person gets to live a cushy life but left this mess. Things like this is happening ALL the time especially when big money is a concern.

This is BIG BUSINESS stuff. Were talking about billions here. World of Warcraft was a growing monster of a company in a growth spurt. If I'm the owner or part owner of Blizzard do you think i'll just sit idle and watch some of my market share get stolen? These companies are RUTHLESS to each other. They are straight up enemies in the worse sense of the word. They HATE each other. This game was seriously FEARED by BLIZZARD and rightfully so. As blizzard I would study other companies out there. The release date for Warhammer online through a quick google search was Sept 18 2008. A quick google search on the release of Wrath of the Lich King was Nov. 13 2008. I bet blizzard already had wraith of the liche king prepped and ready and were just waiting for Warhammer Online's release. They timed their release in addition to forcing mythic to release the game early. It was a tactical move worth billions of dollars what blizzard did. Everything stated is purely a guess but to me it makes sense.

How much money would it take for you to ruin a game and destroy a couple of careers especially if you don't even really play video games? These corporate heads are probably a lot older then their customers. All they care about is money. They might not even see this as a bad thing. Its probably just business to them.

Also what did world of warcraft really lack at the time? A serious PVP mechanic put into the game. PVP was a after thought for Warcraft in its original design. They only introduced arena's when Burning crusade came out. Their game lacked a serious pvp focus. What was Warhammer Online advertising? A serious PvP focus. Warhammer online was seriously poised to take a HUGE chunk of blizzard's market share because they recognized the gaming communities meta shifting towards more pvp focus.

I also bet (pure guess) that EA starved this game for resources. Probably done at blizzards indirect request by paying key people off. (<----pure guess). The poor skeleton crew left probably never even knew they were doomed or they knew they were doomed and just wanted to keep a job so they did whatever they were told. These things get ugly. I'm just guessing here guys. (<---stretch guess of a paragraph)

This game was probably near finished by still had a lot of rough edges. It wasn't nearly close to being polished. They didn't even get to finish the endgame content.

Everything I stated above is a guess. I don't know but just observing what happened at the time, I'm making assumptions.

Does anyone know why this game was forced out early? I don't know but I can make guesses.

This game was probably 70% done then kicked out the door. We didn't even have blackguards out in release. This game wasn't finished. Blizzard wanted this game to fail. Hell they might have even had corporate mole's in Mythic making critical design flaws on purpose. <-----What I just said is stretchy but definitely possible due to the amount of money at stake.

[Tklees]

Wow. That's some tin foil hat level stuff right there.

[Ghostweed]

Wow. That's some tin foil hat level stuff right there.

Please dont brake forum rules as u just broke 7 of them. U should be an example of forum behavior.

1. Don't be a Troll,
2. No Flame Throwers allowed,
3. R-E-S-P-E-C-T:,
4. All posts must be constructive,
5. Off-Color Humour:

and also:

6. No strawmanning, cherry picking or Omnislashing.

Response to topic:

Why? Because u cant see the big picture? We, in our furniture company, did almost the same thing to our competitor. Also Blizzard is well known for scam like or more "greedy" practices - D3 as an example.

Truth is: WAR was realeased unfinished, Blizzards WoW was the biggest competitor at that time, Warhammer tabletop is strictly balanced around racial warbands, Total War Warhammer is balanced around racial armies.

I dont really get u guys, the OP is trying to explain and present his ideas in mature and complex way. Response of community? Nothing more than dishonesting, trolling, flaming and endless elitism ("I know the game more than u!" argument) with some honorable exceptions.

[Tklees]

Wow. That's some tin foil hat level stuff right there.

Please dont brake forum rules as u just broke 7 of them. U should be an example of forum behavior.

1. Don't be a Troll,
2. No Flame Throwers allowed,
3. R-E-S-P-E-C-T:,
4. All posts must be constructive,
5. Off-Color Humour:

and also:

6. No strawmanning, cherry picking or Omnislashing.

Response to topic:

Why? Because u cant see the big picture? We, in our furniture company, did almost the same thing to our competitor. Also Blizzard is well known for scam like or more "greedy" practices - D3 as an example.

Truth is: WAR was realeased unfinished, Blizzards WoW was the biggest competitor at that time, Warhammer tabletop is strictly balanced around racial warbands, Total War Warhammer is balanced around racial armies.

I dont really get u guys, the OP is trying to explain and present his ideas in mature and complex way. Response of community? Nothing more than dishonesting, trolling, flaming and endless elitism ("I know the game more than u!" argument) with some honorable exceptions.

1. I am not trolling the OP nor have I. He can vouch for conversations we have had in PMs. I respect his opinion as aloof as it may seem to me.
2. I did not flame him I responded to his post, which at points seemed very conspiracy theorist to me, in a way that said that it seemed a far-fetched idea to me
3. see number 1
4. Its called constructive criticism.
5. I did not make my post in a humorous way.
6. How did I straw man, mis represent, his post? He posted a conspiracy theory I commented on said theory.

We are not saying that warhammer is not a racially based game. We are just saying that the best groups involve a mixture of races. And yes some of do know this game better than others as we have invested years playing and testing setups to find the best ones. The OP has repeatedly ignored people who post ideas against him siting the same idea over and over without any proof of it being right to the point of which we now have a 30 page thread of it. Again I respect the OPs opinion but there comes a point where proof is needed to support theory and he has yet to provide any that is not based on numbers and paper.

[Azarael]

Wow. That's some tin foil hat level stuff right there.

Please dont brake forum rules as u just broke 7 of them. U should be an example of forum behavior.

1. Don't be a Troll,
2. No Flame Throwers allowed,
3. R-E-S-P-E-C-T:,
4. All posts must be constructive,
5. Off-Color Humour:

and also:

6. No strawmanning, cherry picking or Omnislashing.

You forgot:

* Moderator, you are not:
We encourage everyone to report posts they feel violate these rules, however, do not take it upon yourself to inform players when you do so. Saying "Reported" and other such behaviors is tolerated just as much as the behavior you're reporting, that is to say, not at all.

It so happens that TK is absolutely right. Read the post he's responding to. The guy is admitting that it's all conjecture, and I agree that it's outlandish, tinfoil stuff.

[Penril]

I just want to add that several people who were initially discussing in this thread left a while ago (maybe around page 15, not gonna bother checking). The reason is that, no matter what we say, OP replies with a huge wall of text of theorycraft that basically says "yes, but then my racial WB can do this and this and this".

He made his point. He explained his theory. It is time to form his racial 6-man and fight a mixed premade. But i know he will say that this theory was made with a 24-man group in mind. And unfortunately, i find it extremely difficult to organize a 24v24.

[Karast]

One of the problems with looking at damage types and resist buffs and debuffs and suggestions that it was designed with racial groups in mind is that it doesn't always work that way outside of a few examples.

Take a look at dwarves, Engi's do namely corp, and RP's do elemental. They don't match up at all. Engi actually has good synergy with BW because it has a bit AoE corp debuff, which BW's really lack. You could say there is synergy when it comes to melee dps, but if you put any melee dps together they have synergy.

The same can be said of Empire.

And even if your look at the defensive resist tactics, they don't make much sense either. Dwarves get corp, but greenskins do elemental. It's all mismatched.

[Genisaurus]

Wow. That's some tin foil hat level stuff right there.

Please dont brake forum rules as u just broke 7 of them. U should be an example of forum behavior.

1. Don't be a Troll,
2. No Flame Throwers allowed,
3. R-E-S-P-E-C-T:,
4. All posts must be constructive,
5. Off-Color Humour:

and also:

6. No strawmanning, cherry picking or Omnislashing.

Response to topic:

Why? Because u cant see the big picture? We, in our furniture company, did almost the same thing to our competitor. Also Blizzard is well known for scam like or more "greedy" practices - D3 as an example.

Truth is: WAR was realeased unfinished, Blizzards WoW was the biggest competitor at that time, Warhammer tabletop is strictly balanced around racial warbands, Total War Warhammer is balanced around racial armies.

I dont really get u guys, the OP is trying to explain and present his ideas in mature and complex way. Response of community? Nothing more than dishonesting, trolling, flaming and endless elitism ("I know the game more than u!" argument) with some honorable exceptions.

It's perhaps a non-constructive post, but it's not trolling, flaming, off-color or disrespectful. It's most certainly not a strawman.

The idea that Blizzard conspired to "pay off" EA to force the early launch of WAR is patently absurd. It's not flaming to say so. Not only would that be massively illegal and a risk to Blizzard as a company, it makes no sense. WoW was the top MMO in 2008 by all respects, with a second expansion underway, and faced no threat from any competition. MMOs were failing all around it daily, the "precious and beloved" DAoC included.

It would make far more sense and be far more reasonable to suggest that WAR was forced out early to beat WotLK to market, and hopefully pick up some of the "free" MMO subs that WoW would have captured when it launched. That strategy just failed.

Those players were mostly ex-WoW players, who got pulled back just like they do with every expansion. Worse, they had played WAR when it was at it's buggiest, worst-designed state, and had no desire to return after seeing the polish and depth of WoW had to offer. If WAR had been a solid product, the strategy might have worked. Players would have had a month or two to become invested, and wouldn't want to throw away their work to go play WoW again. Alternatively, they would go get bored of the new content, and come back to a game that was completely brand new. But WAR wasn't a solid product, and it bled out 300k subs instead.

This isn't some revisionist history, and the facts aren't up to debate. "Beating your opponent to market" is a time-tested strategy, and works in most cases. What caused it to fail is a massive lack of understanding of the target audience and the market, and a massive lack of understanding and communication regarding the necessary level of polish to launch an MMO. These are plain human failings very common to management. Far more likely than a bribe.