[Split] Marauder discussion

[Coryphaus]

Its not just classes but also alternative playstyles like 2h tanks that could use some love

[Azuzu]

See, I understand that I could be projecting terribly here and therefore wrong, but I disagree. I think that most people love(d) WAR because of what it could be, not what it was. Is there anyone here who played since at least 1.1, and did not unsub/quit at least once before the game closed? Frankly, I would be highly suspect of anyone who claims that they didn't.

Which is not to say that I don't believe you when you say that you love WAR, I trust that you mean what you say. And it's fine if people want to talk about balance solely in terms of tweaking individual classes instead of broad balance changes. I don't actually like broad changes as a general policy myself, I just personally feel that Mythic made so many of these bad, broad-stroke changes that some probably need to be reversed so their desired effects can be implemented in a more fine-tuned manner.

First, I want to say, I think you and I are saying we want the same thing, just saying it different ways. I'd like to see slow small changes. I'd be willing to agree with undoing what Mythic did and slowly doing the right job the should have done the first time.


Your absolutely right. I loved WAR (not as much as DAoC tho), but I'd leave for new MMOs (greener pastures). I'd come back when other MMOs didn't live up to any of my expectations. People quit WAR for different reasons tho, mine had nothing to do with class balance. My issue with WAR was a few different things.

One: Power gap between the haves and the have nots. RR100 and 90 gear turned people into gods.

Two: PvP System, the thing that use to drive me crazy about WAR was PvDoor, Keep Swaping, anything that made avoiding fighting others the best way to gear.

Three: Lack of population.....just dead servers

Four: Lack of CC, the ability to control much larger groups with smaller ones. The one effective AoE CC Stagger....which was a joke when compared to DAoC was nerfed.

Five: It wasn't DAoC 2, I came from DAoC, War was suppose to be my DAoC 2....it simply wasn't which disappointed a lot of us DAoC players.


I could keep going about the issues I had with WAR. Class balance wasn't something that bothered me a lot. I thought some classes could use some tweaking, but it was never a major deterrence for me, when compared to the above.

[Jaycub]

Four: Lack of CC, the ability to control much larger groups with smaller ones. The one effective AoE CC Stagger....which was a joke when compared to DAoC was nerfed.

If you even mention slightly changing what the CC immunity patch did you immediately get branded worse than Hitler by the majority of the community here. People defend that **** like it's their G-d given liberty.

[Azuzu]

Four: Lack of CC, the ability to control much larger groups with smaller ones. The one effective AoE CC Stagger....which was a joke when compared to DAoC was nerfed.

If you even mention slightly changing what the CC immunity patch did you immediately get branded worse than Hitler by the majority of the community here. People defend that **** like it's their G-d given liberty.

It's the direction modern MMOs have taken. People don't like CC, they don't want to lose control of their characters. They like to run around unimpeded, it's more fun.

All that's fine, but you need something to make up for the lack of CC when smaller groups fight bigger ones. Things like hard hitting AoE and guard are these trade offs.

[Landaren]

Again, if you want to play a DPS there are plenty of options out there.

DPS tanks ARE viable, but not until higher levels with better gear.

They need no buffs.

[Coryphaus]

Again, if you want to play a DPS there are plenty of options out there.

DPS tanks ARE viable, but not until higher levels with better gear.

They need no buffs.

Yes this is true to some extent

But 2h black guard needs a minor buff in that they need access to a knockdown, every tank now has acess to a kd while in the 2h playstyle bar Bg

Change the useless blade of ruin into a cave in mirror

[Landaren]

What is the alternate play style of a Witch elf?

I mean you guys are asking for things that other classes call home, tanks already have all the CC, perma snare, best defenses in the game, the ability to reduce the enemys damage output in numerous ways.

A bright wizard can play AoE damage or single target damage.
They aren't stepping out of their realm and healing people.

If you want an alternate play style roll an alt. This debate is a sickness, every time people want their class to "do more" they end up displacing another classes roll. Magus and engi were suppose to be the "CC" kings in this game, then every tank and their mama wanted CC to protect their party. Mythic caved and left the magus and engi's holding the bag for a year. Being terrible DPS and Unneeded CC because all the tanks had it.

Not trying to get on a soap box or anything but if you can have all the utility of a tank while being a "viable" melee dps whats the fing point of bringing a melee dps?

[Azarael]

The Witch Elf is a false comparison in two ways:

a) The mastery paths of the Witch Elf focus on general frontal assault, over-time effects and backstabbing. These are all solidly within the role of a melee DPS. The mastery paths for tanks, however, tend to encompass protection of self, dealing damage to others, and a third utility path. This, combined with the fact that tanks have the ability to equip a two-handed weapon, means that playing a tank which leans towards damage, with a two-hander if necessary should be a valid style.

b) If a tank that deals damage does SO MUCH damage that it eclipses the role of a melee DPS, that's not playstyle, that's balance failure. If people don't want to play a given spec, chances are it's simply not viable, and buffing it need not render other classes pointless.

One thing I feel this game has always suffered from is players considering that if a class has ONE valid spec, that class is fine and needs no work doing with it. Sometimes you have to settle for that in the grand scheme of things, but this remains crappy internal class balance. Slayer's a good example of this.

[Landaren]

Ok, lets take the black guard for example then

A black guard can equip a twohander, run a tactic to give them a nearly permanent 50% outgoing healing debuff, and not be detauntable while being able to keep a target locked into combat, removing their armor and debuffing various other stats.

At what level of damage dealing potential does a DPS BG become the more valid choice for a group to run over another form of DPS due to your utility from CC and various buffs and debuffs.
Where do you draw the line?

This is the basic argument we have with the marauder right now, every destro team basically must run a marauder. You are a fool not to at this point, it has the best abilities in the game at this level in terms of utility and the damage is respectable, it's not as heavy as a WL, but the debuffs boost your other team mates damage output into the next tier of awesome.



If we dialed those debuffs back then you'd be better off just running said DPS black guard because his utility would outshine the Marauders now.

Anyone that was around at launch knows how absurdly broken everything was, from disorients to RoF to twohanders having their damage calculated differently then it is now, a twohanded ironbreaker at launch SMASHED all other melee dps in this game into the ground. Only the WE with their buggy procs on procs on procs could keep up.

Do we really need another "hey, lets just cross guard tank train and never die" meta to come around again?

[Azuzu]

At what level of damage dealing potential does a DPS BG become the more valid choice for a group to run over another form of DPS due to your utility from CC and various buffs and debuffs.
Where do you draw the line?

I draw the line when tanks start killing people effectively with their damage.

For the most part dps tanks are ignored as damage threats when compared to dmg dealers. Tanks aren't bursting a target down when it has two healers.