Return of Reckoning

We have already been debating what Nanji has said. At least he has the respect for the sanctity of a public forum to hear others.

Perhaps you should view some of the retorts?

As well as I should say that you already have the arguments FOR a knockdown on 2H BG. Just because 1 person said it in a public forum does not make their argument superior to someone else's. That's kind of how opinion works, buddy.

Your point is already proven, because it is your opinion. you can't disprove someone's opinion. You want to play a game that never has mirror matchups, we get it.

So why aren't you moving to remove every mirrored ability from the game? Is it okay to have some, but not all? If so, that is what we are asking for, to have one fundamental ability mirrored, while leaving a lot of differences.

mursie wrote:

tomato wrote:Mirroring was done in war because mythic run out of ideas. This is a generalization - You are discrediting alot of intelligent people who worked on this game and spent 5+ years to make it better and better after each patch. The combat changes made - which mirrored alot of classes - brought a ton of balance to a game that was greatly imbalanced at launched. I'm glad you believe you can easily do what many many minds were unable to do at launch - create an asymmetrical game that is well balanced. But then again - after reading most of your posts, it should not surprise myself or anyone that you would have this type of opinion.

Comparing asymmetrical game balance with a mathematical equation makes no sense at all.
This comparison was made in light of an equation with variables remark made by one of your fellow guildmates - balancing an equation can be made easier or more difficult based on the # of variables present.

You can go the simple road by just mirroring all classes, which would completly destroy the game in my opinion or you can go the hard way and be creative. I appreciate that you have identified this is your opinion. It is a welcome change to most of your posts.

Simplifying things isn't working smarter, it's beeing lazy. We can agree to disagree on this.
I discredit mirroring because it destroys one of the core elements which made war great. I'm full for partial mirroring - as long as the partial mirrors are on fundamental aspects.

Interesting, where and when did I say I believe I can easily balance this game asymmetrical?
Stop talking out of your ass, sadly no change from your other posts.

Almost every mirror balance thread in this forum is made like: "class x has skill y and that's total op, please give y to class z or delete it!"
That's beeing lazy on every level. Ingame and balance wise. You're not trying to come up with stuff against y, nor are you giving constructive balance suggestions.

tomato wrote: Almost every mirror balance thread in this forum is made like: "class x has skill y and that's total op, please give y to class z or delete it!"
That's beeing lazy on every level. Ingame and balance wise. You're not trying to come up with stuff against y, nor are you giving constructive balance suggestions.

I mean this is true, a lot of posts are.

Many of us in this thread are trying to remain as constructive as possible and offer perspective on the matter and show respect for each other.

There are trolls, there always will be.

Don't you feel that your posts are a little antagonistic and non-constructive as well? I would love to hear more about your opinions but you just keep attacking Mursi.

@Uchoo
I'm not going to write an essay about kd for 2-hand bg, because most of my points have already been said by nanji.
My main concern is people wanting to mirror classes in this game, and I will never agree on that.

If you want to look at non-constructive/attacking posts look up mursis's post history. (He was on fire with that 6man thing)

tomato wrote:@Uchoo
I'm not going to write an essay about kd for 2-hand bg, because most of my points have already been said by nanji.
My main concern is people wanting to mirror classes in this game, and I will never agree on that.

If you want to look at non-constructive/attacking posts look up mursis's post history. (He was on fire with that 6man thing)

Oh I know. Mursi is very strong in the department of political satire.

I understand what Nanji is saying about the downsides of giving a knockdown to a 2H BG but I disagree it with it because it is so hard to compare things in this game in a vacuum, just too many variables, which is why I said that statistics are the best way to re-evaluate the power of a spec/role in a game like this in my opinion.

My counter argument was that we should not trivialize what a BG can do by himself with a 2H on because the realms are fairly balanced, just as we shouldn't with other classes.

I personally don't see how adding a knockdown to a 2H BG, a class that you can already expect a knockdown from with a shield on, a type of play that is more powerful in the opinion of many, is going to harm the game in any way; especially consider that an IB can deliver an almost identical amount of damage in the build. Sure, the utility they offer is a bit different, but CI > HB > ES > GBF is not far from BoR (knockdown) > CD > PS > EB. Am I missing anything?

I would frankly love to get knocked down and bursted by a 2H Blackguard while playing my Order toons, it would add a lot more flavor to what I currently expect from them, and another element of gameplay.

Uchoo wrote:
I personally don't see how adding a knockdown to a 2H BG, a class that you can already expect a knockdown from with a shield on, a type of play that is more powerful in the opinion of many, is going to harm the game in any way; especially consider that an IB can deliver an almost identical amount of damage in the build. Sure, the utility they offer is a bit different, but CI > HB > ES > GBF is not far from BoR (knockdown) > CD > PS > EB. Am I missing anything?

I would frankly love to get knocked down and bursted by a 2H Blackguard while playing my Order toons, it would add a lot more flavor to what I currently expect from them, and another element of gameplay.

Especially the red marked part is very disturbing considering that an IB can be detaunted, while the BG cant.
Also the IB has very strong dots, that need to be ticking, while the BG has straight burst, maintaining sustain dmg due to AA haste.
The ttk is much higher for an IB. I think it is very obvious even on paper.
Also the IB needs a tactic to gain grudge offensively resulting in very low dmg when not being attacked.

tomato wrote: Interesting, where and when did I say I believe I can easily balance this game asymmetrical?
Stop talking out of your ass, sadly no change from your other posts.

Almost every mirror balance thread in this forum is made like: "class x has skill y and that's total op, please give y to class z or delete it!"
That's beeing lazy on every level. Ingame and balance wise. You're not trying to come up with stuff against y, nor are you giving constructive balance suggestions.

Tomato - Your posts are good for a laugh - thank you:

Comments by Tomato:

1. Stop talking out of your ass
2. Mirroring was done in war because mythic run out of ideas
3. Simplifying things isn't working smarter, it's beeing lazy
4. Mirroring is a balancing tool which is used when you're to dumb to balance things otherwise
5. If you would have used your brain at any given time you would have realized we never said it should only be balanced around 6vs6, but that this is the best and easiest way. And you example with rb is bad
6. It's not hard to get 6 ppl to play at the same time. Maybe you're just not social enough?
7. I just like the game beeing balanced in general, and that balancing is done after gametesting and discussing with players who know what they're doing. And NOT as reaction to whine threads on the forum
8. If you would have paid attention, you would have seen me posting mostly in balance (mostly nerf x, buff y) threads. Because I hate wrong claims beeing presented as facts
9. I got no problems with my posts beeing condescending as long they're right
10. Horrible, the dev wants to listen to better/more experienced players. What a monster.
11. The best way to measure skill, is 6vs6
12. And for all the idiots complaining about wl mobility/snares....
13. You could l2p instead.
14. What do you have to do to play destru successfully? Cry on the forum instead of actually learning to play.
15. You should stop beeing so emotionally, that's bad for your health
16. That's like, just your opinion man.
17. Speccing 20 points into deft defender is actually pretty smart. Or don't and make a forum thread crying about range kd and fester.
18. Mhm if you get solo killed by a dps without healdebuff while playing a healer you should honestly start to look for your detaunt button. Or short, l2p.
19. No you want to talk balance in a group oriented game while never playing in one urself.
I'm not telling you to play in one, but neither are you qualified to comment about balance then.
20. Well I stopped arguing with you because you were even too dumb to understand what I was saying
21. it isn't wrong to have better players arguing balance. Because you know, they understand the game better.
22. Except I never see you running around in a group. If you want to be taken seriously in disscusions like this, play the game how it's meant to be played.
23. Great that you start insulting, so you can't be taken srs anymore anyway.
24. You're not worth arguing, sorry...
25. I don't tell ppl how to play, I said I'd like to encourage them to play in premades. Learn to read.
26. Typical for people with low self esteem is making assumptions about the rl of others and trying to insult them that way. Pathetic mate.
27. l2play issue mate.
28. it's just a learn2play issue, your premade can't keep up the pressure cause you have fail cc (like stagger) your healers are too squishy and your dps deal no dmg/assist like crap.

Nanji wrote:

Uchoo wrote:
I personally don't see how adding a knockdown to a 2H BG, a class that you can already expect a knockdown from with a shield on, a type of play that is more powerful in the opinion of many, is going to harm the game in any way; especially consider that an IB can deliver an almost identical amount of damage in the build. Sure, the utility they offer is a bit different, but CI > HB > ES > GBF is not far from BoR (knockdown) > CD > PS > EB. Am I missing anything?

I would frankly love to get knocked down and bursted by a 2H Blackguard while playing my Order toons, it would add a lot more flavor to what I currently expect from them, and another element of gameplay.

Especially the red marked part is very disturbing considering that an IB can be detaunted, while the BG cant.
Also the IB has very strong dots, that need to be ticking, while the BG has straight burst, maintaining sustain dmg due to AA haste.
The ttk is much higher for an IB. I think it is very obvious even on paper.
Also the IB needs a tactic to gain grudge offensively resulting in very low dmg when not being attacked.

It is indeed true that a BG can't be detaunted with a tactic, which is a strong mechanic.

IB's do indeed have AA haste, although it is somewhat less reliable, but how often have you been hitting a target on an IB and not been hit with a Chillwind, magus dot, Ice Spikes, or Blast Wave?

Of course, Rising Anger is standard for Ironbreakers, or apparently Dwarven Riposte to some. Either way, they generate grudge just like a BG generates Hatred, excluding Enraged Beating. The IB has maximum damage potential just sitting at 100 grudge though, whereas the BG builds and spends. So in a longer fight, wouldn't the IB have the advantage, discounting the can't be detaunted tactic?

Uchoo wrote:
It is indeed true that a BG can't be detaunted with a tactic, which is a strong mechanic.

It is THE major difference, dont mention it like a sidenote, ib cant achieve an even ttk when being detaunted which should happen very often

IB's do indeed have AA haste, although it is somewhat less reliable, but how often have you been hitting a target on an IB and not been hit with a Chillwind, magus dot, Ice Spikes, or Blast Wave?

very situational, while the BGs haste is not

Of course, Rising Anger is standard for Ironbreakers, or apparently Dwarven Riposte to some. Either way, they generate grudge just like a BG generates Hatred, excluding Enraged Beating. The IB has maximum damage potential just sitting at 100 grudge though, whereas the BG builds and spends. So in a longer fight, wouldn't the IB have the advantage, discounting the can't be detaunted tactic?
The BG spends hate for crit and having his mechanic means 1 tactic slot less for the ib.
The longer fights you mention usually dont appear in random scenarios and if we are talking about arranged fights I highly doubt that ib will receive his aa haste.
What also counts towards BGs ttk is that he has a wounds debuff, 1,2k on lvl 40 afaik. Around 900 now.
Additionally I want to point that BG is also capable of dealing mentionable ae dmg.

There you go. IB just cant really compete here and he doesnt have to. IB competes with SM and Kobs.

i think its good TRADE for players :

SM gets "EF" icreased duration from 5s. to 10seconds;
while in same time
BG gets "SS" allowed to proc from block or Parry.