Return of Reckoning

Avernus wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2023 3:26 am

nat3s wrote: Sun Aug 13, 2023 7:41 pm Psst, that 50% AP tactic is what we're talking about, it's been nerfed to 25%. From a WB perspective, Mara is great, but for 6v6, small man and 1v1 it's significantly weaker than WL. For instance WL pull is so much better, no cast time so it doesn't interrupt dps rotation half as much as for a Mara + WL has Pounce to close distance.

On reflection I think the Piercing Bite change is actually an ok change, WL 50% AP tactic was also nerfed to 25% and allowing AP buffs to stack with WS is a change being made across the board which seems reasonable.

It's actually a buff too, since old Piercing Bite didn't stack with your ws. With this new tactic you can reach 75%+ AP without any troubles.

Yeah agree + TB now works with PB which is nice.

Avernus wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2023 3:26 am

nat3s wrote: Sun Aug 13, 2023 7:41 pm Psst, that 50% AP tactic is what we're talking about, it's been nerfed to 25%. From a WB perspective, Mara is great, but for 6v6, small man and 1v1 it's significantly weaker than WL. For instance WL pull is so much better, no cast time so it doesn't interrupt dps rotation half as much as for a Mara + WL has Pounce to close distance.

On reflection I think the Piercing Bite change is actually an ok change, WL 50% AP tactic was also nerfed to 25% and allowing AP buffs to stack with WS is a change being made across the board which seems reasonable.

It's actually a buff too, since old Piercing Bite didn't stack with your ws. With this new tactic you can reach 75%+ AP without any troubles.

To hit 75% AP with PB you would need 50% AP from WS and other armour pen bonuses, and then +25% from PB.

Under the old system, you would have effectively the same amount of armour pen as well. 50% AP from WS and other armour pen bonuses, and then PB ignored 50% of the remaining armour which basically gave another 25% in this specific circumstance.

The change to PB is a nerf for anyone who's armour pen was less than 50% before the tactic was applied, and a buff to anyone who's armour pen was more than 50% before the tactic is applied.

Omegus wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2023 9:41 am

Avernus wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2023 3:26 am

nat3s wrote: Sun Aug 13, 2023 7:41 pm Psst, that 50% AP tactic is what we're talking about, it's been nerfed to 25%. From a WB perspective, Mara is great, but for 6v6, small man and 1v1 it's significantly weaker than WL. For instance WL pull is so much better, no cast time so it doesn't interrupt dps rotation half as much as for a Mara + WL has Pounce to close distance.

On reflection I think the Piercing Bite change is actually an ok change, WL 50% AP tactic was also nerfed to 25% and allowing AP buffs to stack with WS is a change being made across the board which seems reasonable.

It's actually a buff too, since old Piercing Bite didn't stack with your ws. With this new tactic you can reach 75%+ AP without any troubles.

To hit 75% AP with PB you would need 50% AP from WS and other armour pen bonuses, and then +25% from PB.

Under the old system, you would have effectively the same amount of armour pen as well. 50% AP from WS and other armour pen bonuses, and then PB ignored 50% of the remaining armour which basically gave another 25% in this specific circumstance.

The change to PB is a nerf for anyone who's armour pen was less than 50% before the tactic was applied, and a buff to anyone who's armour pen was more than 50% before the tactic is applied.

But why tho ? That means this is a nerf to new players or new alt/characters who cannot stack WS let alone cap their main stat ? Isnt that really bad ?

agemennon675 wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2023 9:59 am

Omegus wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2023 9:41 am

Avernus wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2023 3:26 am
It's actually a buff too, since old Piercing Bite didn't stack with your ws. With this new tactic you can reach 75%+ AP without any troubles.

To hit 75% AP with PB you would need 50% AP from WS and other armour pen bonuses, and then +25% from PB.

Under the old system, you would have effectively the same amount of armour pen as well. 50% AP from WS and other armour pen bonuses, and then PB ignored 50% of the remaining armour which basically gave another 25% in this specific circumstance.

The change to PB is a nerf for anyone who's armour pen was less than 50% before the tactic was applied, and a buff to anyone who's armour pen was more than 50% before the tactic is applied.

But why tho ? That means this is a nerf to new players or new alt/characters who cannot stack WS let alone cap their main stat ? Isnt that really bad ?

Assuming 14 WS = 1% pen (99% sure it is)...

Depending on your armour pen without PB, the old PB provided armour pen equal to up to 700 weapon skill. 700. For one tactic. That would be assuming your non-PB penetration was 0%, so PB was providing 50% armour pen. If you didn't actually stack weapon skill and your opponent had some good anti-armour-pen gear then being at 0% before PB is a realistic possibility. And of course, vets - especially in AOE spec - could go full STR, ignore WS for the most part and instead stack other stats and still get 600-ish WS out of PB.

The new version is equal to 350 WS regardless of other gear.

does its mean armor talisman nerf? to new armor pentration dont feel nerf.
p.s would be good if some smart ppl create thread about all formulas and how its works. atm moment its spreaded all avoer threads from 2015-2023. (if somone really care for newcomers. here was some points out about it. not just in words byt in reality. in words we all ''care'' about fresh blood.)

Here is Dalen's (and Zomega's) explanation of how armor penetration works.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=50766&p=534069

Edit: After the patch, mara with PB, 300 ws, and -1600 armor debuff, vs 3.5 k armor (sov healer with armor talis).

300/14= 21.4%. +PB 25%= 46.4%. 3500-1600=1900. 1900 * (1-0.464)= 1018.4 effective armor. /44= 23.1% armor mitigation which the healer will actually have vs the mara.

Zxul wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2023 7:02 pm Here is Dalen's (and Zomega's) explanation of how armor penetration works.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=50766&p=534069

Edit: After the patch, mara with PB, 300 ws, and -1600 armor debuff, vs 3.5 k armor (sov healer with armor talis).

300/14= 21.4%. +PB 25%= 46.4%. 3500-1600=1900. 1900 * (1-0.464)= 1018.4 effective armor. /44= 23.1% armor mitigation which the healer will actually have vs the mara.

So actually, a bit less than what they have now, as PB is 50%?

About Engi and Magus,
my changes, as i think it will be right
viewtopic.php?t=51459

Akalukz wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2023 8:00 pm

Zxul wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2023 7:02 pm Here is Dalen's (and Zomega's) explanation of how armor penetration works.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=50766&p=534069

Edit: After the patch, mara with PB, 300 ws, and -1600 armor debuff, vs 3.5 k armor (sov healer with armor talis).

300/14= 21.4%. +PB 25%= 46.4%. 3500-1600=1900. 1900 * (1-0.464)= 1018.4 effective armor. /44= 23.1% armor mitigation which the healer will actually have vs the mara.

So actually, a bit less than what they have now, as PB is 50%?

The nerf will probably be felt lot more in aoe build, where mara armor debuff isn't available.

Same 3500 armor, but now without the armor debuff:

300/14= 21.4%. +PB 25%= 46.4%. 3500 * (1-0.464)=1876. /44= 42.6% actual armor mitigation vs aoe.

Zealot aoe armor debuff might actually become sought after. Or everybody will just switch to choppa.

Zxul wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2023 8:41 pm

Akalukz wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2023 8:00 pm

Zxul wrote: Mon Aug 14, 2023 7:02 pm Here is Dalen's (and Zomega's) explanation of how armor penetration works.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=50766&p=534069

Edit: After the patch, mara with PB, 300 ws, and -1600 armor debuff, vs 3.5 k armor (sov healer with armor talis).

300/14= 21.4%. +PB 25%= 46.4%. 3500-1600=1900. 1900 * (1-0.464)= 1018.4 effective armor. /44= 23.1% armor mitigation which the healer will actually have vs the mara.

So actually, a bit less than what they have now, as PB is 50%?

The nerf will probably be felt lot more in aoe build, where mara armor debuff isn't available.

Same 3500 armor, but now without the armor debuff:

300/14= 21.4%. +PB 25%= 46.4%. 3500 * (1-0.464)=1876. /44= 42.6% actual armor mitigation vs aoe.

Zealot aoe armor debuff might actually become sought after. Or everybody will just switch to choppa.

True, but they don't have the debuff now in AoE. So it would still be 21.4% + 25% = 46.4% as long as the tactic is additive and not multiplicative. So an effective loss of 5% or so depending on current WS