Return of Reckoning

Foofmonger wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:25 pm

M0rw47h wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:43 pm

emiliorv wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:26 pm the difference is that WP can (and will) slot ED+discipline and that means a real difference.

Wat.

What he is saying is:

The WP can slot both ED (which gives 20% healing bonus) and Discipline (160 willpower), giving the WP 25%-31% increased healing (more or less).
The DoK can slot Discipline, giviing them 5-11% increased healing.

Whether or not WPs do slot ED/Discipline, is another matter (and/or whether DOKs slot Discipline).

That being said, acting like 5%-11% healing increases and 20% healing increases "are the same thing", is a delusional take at best. Yes, and also 5% damage is the same as 20% damage! Math!!!!!

No, he just suggested WPs run both ED and Discipline. Thats ridiculous.

teiloh wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:47 pm

Foofmonger wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:37 pm

teiloh wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:32 pm I wouldn't. To qualify as burst healing, imo, certain conditions need to be met: the target must essentially be "saved" from death or some other disabling condition. It's more about getting a heal in when it matters, and often a 10-20% difference in healed output will not matter. This is why I toss a lot of Heal+HoTs, it's enough to do the job (a certain percent of times) even if its value is low. The value matters, but mechanics like speed and range are often more essential.

Now that the Shaman has Desperation (one of dozens of instances of one-way mirroring from Order to Destro), they're probably the best burst healer in the game. FoDG with Destros obscene CD reducer advantage is by and far the most healing you can get out of one character supported by one group member.

Got it, so really, it's that Order has "theoretical" healing advantage on paper, but in practice, a variety of variables and factors even this out to roughly similar levels of effective healing.

So, to discuss further. Based on your feedback above, what would be your proposed solutions for fixing these balance issues?

To start, balancing CD increasers/reducers is a must. I'd remove the BO version (at least two devs seem to agree that it a questionable change). Chop Fasta should be on a 60s timer once more. SM Whirling Winds should be given a small range and something other than Silence. My old proposal was making it a 25% heal steal, but Mythic stole this idea and put it on the Marauder. Then make Crashing Wave an AOE. The BO is in need of a few other balance alterations but I think I'll stop here.

For Squigs, make Bad Gas! the 30s timed AOE CD increaser again. I'd like a see an entire rework tbh, in which Squig Leap would be removed period (with compensation elsewhere) and the mSH made to synergize better with the rest of the class.

Knight Stay Focused should do something other than its crap heal on defense. Don't see why the AP regen was removed.

WH could use a few more skills that trigger bullets.

Beyond that I'd make Khaine's Withdrawal an M3 and swap it with Universal Confusion, scaling down the damage on UC somewhat for its new position.

Then make KW remove Curses once more, but then also replace AM's Arcane Suppression with a ground-target AOE effect that nullifies ally debuffs in the radius for 7 seconds.

I mean I'd happy trade the heal steal off, you know that! Jokes aside.

1. Balancing CD increases/reducers make sense. Would an appropriate (but maybe not preferable) alternative to the above be mirroring Chop Fasta somewhere on Order and leaving it on the BO?
2. For Stay Focused: Would this impact the mirrored Chosen aura as well?
3. WH I think could use a lot of things, that's probably just a start no?
4. Morale swaps seem reasonable. That AM morale seems a bit strong though no? What's the counterplay to that? Wouldn't a mirror to KW be more balanced/counterable?

M0rw47h wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:48 pm

Foofmonger wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:25 pm

M0rw47h wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:43 pm

Wat.

What he is saying is:

The WP can slot both ED (which gives 20% healing bonus) and Discipline (160 willpower), giving the WP 25%-31% increased healing (more or less).
The DoK can slot Discipline, giviing them 5-11% increased healing.

Whether or not WPs do slot ED/Discipline, is another matter (and/or whether DOKs slot Discipline).

That being said, acting like 5%-11% healing increases and 20% healing increases "are the same thing", is a delusional take at best. Yes, and also 5% damage is the same as 20% damage! Math!!!!!

No, he just suggested WPs run both ED and Discipline. Thats ridiculous.

I mean, just because it's a bad idea doesn't mean you can't do it. There's plenty of people rocking weird builds.

Foofmonger wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:54 pm

teiloh wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:47 pm

Foofmonger wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:37 pm

Got it, so really, it's that Order has "theoretical" healing advantage on paper, but in practice, a variety of variables and factors even this out to roughly similar levels of effective healing.

So, to discuss further. Based on your feedback above, what would be your proposed solutions for fixing these balance issues?

To start, balancing CD increasers/reducers is a must. I'd remove the BO version (at least two devs seem to agree that it a questionable change). Chop Fasta should be on a 60s timer once more. SM Whirling Winds should be given a small range and something other than Silence. My old proposal was making it a 25% heal steal, but Mythic stole this idea and put it on the Marauder. Then make Crashing Wave an AOE. The BO is in need of a few other balance alterations but I think I'll stop here.

For Squigs, make Bad Gas! the 30s timed AOE CD increaser again. I'd like a see an entire rework tbh, in which Squig Leap would be removed period (with compensation elsewhere) and the mSH made to synergize better with the rest of the class.

Knight Stay Focused should do something other than its crap heal on defense. Don't see why the AP regen was removed.

WH could use a few more skills that trigger bullets.

Beyond that I'd make Khaine's Withdrawal an M3 and swap it with Universal Confusion, scaling down the damage on UC somewhat for its new position.

Then make KW remove Curses once more, but then also replace AM's Arcane Suppression with a ground-target AOE effect that nullifies ally debuffs in the radius for 7 seconds.

I mean I'd happy trade the heal steal off, you know that! Jokes aside.

1. Balancing CD increases/reducers make sense. Would an appropriate (but maybe not preferable) alternative to the above be mirroring Chop Fasta somewhere on Order and leaving it on the BO?
2. For Stay Focused: Would this impact the mirrored Chosen aura as well?
3. WH I think could use a lot of things, that's probably just a start no?
4. Morale swaps seem reasonable. That AM morale seems a bit strong though no? What's the counterplay to that? Wouldn't a mirror to KW be more balanced/counterable?

1. BOs are simply put, overloaded. They're better at DPS than any other tank unless I'm mistaken, have the best utility, and excellent survivability. They have decent AOE and harass backlines about as well as BG. It's no wonder they're so overpopulated.
2. I'm against more mirroring, but in general the Auras shouldn't be crap. All of them should be pretty good on their own merits.
4. It'd be roughly equivalent to Khaine's Withdrawal. A bit better for spikes and clumps but it won't completely wipe out effects. Mirroring KW to AM would be good for balance and probably the simplest way to do it, but I'd prefer something more "Archmagey"

teiloh wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:02 pm

Foofmonger wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:54 pm

teiloh wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:47 pm

To start, balancing CD increasers/reducers is a must. I'd remove the BO version (at least two devs seem to agree that it a questionable change). Chop Fasta should be on a 60s timer once more. SM Whirling Winds should be given a small range and something other than Silence. My old proposal was making it a 25% heal steal, but Mythic stole this idea and put it on the Marauder. Then make Crashing Wave an AOE. The BO is in need of a few other balance alterations but I think I'll stop here.

For Squigs, make Bad Gas! the 30s timed AOE CD increaser again. I'd like a see an entire rework tbh, in which Squig Leap would be removed period (with compensation elsewhere) and the mSH made to synergize better with the rest of the class.

Knight Stay Focused should do something other than its crap heal on defense. Don't see why the AP regen was removed.

WH could use a few more skills that trigger bullets.

Beyond that I'd make Khaine's Withdrawal an M3 and swap it with Universal Confusion, scaling down the damage on UC somewhat for its new position.

Then make KW remove Curses once more, but then also replace AM's Arcane Suppression with a ground-target AOE effect that nullifies ally debuffs in the radius for 7 seconds.

I mean I'd happy trade the heal steal off, you know that! Jokes aside.

1. Balancing CD increases/reducers make sense. Would an appropriate (but maybe not preferable) alternative to the above be mirroring Chop Fasta somewhere on Order and leaving it on the BO?
2. For Stay Focused: Would this impact the mirrored Chosen aura as well?
3. WH I think could use a lot of things, that's probably just a start no?
4. Morale swaps seem reasonable. That AM morale seems a bit strong though no? What's the counterplay to that? Wouldn't a mirror to KW be more balanced/counterable?

1. BOs are simply put, overloaded. They're better at DPS than any other tank unless I'm mistaken, have the best utility, and excellent survivability. They have decent AOE and harass backlines about as well as BG. It's no wonder they're so overpopulated.
2. I'm against more mirroring, but in general the Auras shouldn't be crap. All of them should be pretty good on their own merits.
4. It'd be roughly equivalent to Khaine's Withdrawal. A bit better for spikes and clumps but it won't completely wipe out effects. Mirroring KW to AM would be good for balance and probably the simplest way to do it, but I'd prefer something more "Archmagey"

1. Makes sense.
2. They could both get a "different" upgrade I guess. Maybe +AP to the Knight and some other random thing to the Chosen (haven't put any though into it, so who knows).
3. Yea that makes sense, mirroring is probably easier but I get where you're going with that.

Good convo! I think your balance takes are perfectly reasonable and I can support them as a Destro player.

Foofmonger wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:58 pmOrder has 5 non-meta classes (IB/SW/Engie/WH/AM), out of those, most WBs will take 1-0 of.
Destro has 4 non-meta classes (BG/Magus/WE/Sham) out of those, most WBs will take 1-0 of.

BGs and Shamans are a "little" more viable than IBs/AMs, as Destroy may run "2" of them in some cases (instead of the 1 for order). So it is accurate that Order has more non-meta classes, it's just not "order has all the non-meta classes", both sides have to deal with a meta and class composition and unwanted classes. However, you cannot forget about class distribution (again a topic we already covered). People have done class distribution data mining that shows that for example, Order has roughly twice the population of Engineers that Destro has Maguses (and has roughly 30-40% less tanks) which will impact the ability to fill proper cities with proper comps. It doesn't matter how strong you buff/make a class, if you can't field 2/2/2 warbands because all you have is DPS players. If there are 12 DPS players for every 8 tanks, that means every Order WB will have an overflow of 4 dps that needs to go pug.

That being said, I think most people here agree (and I agree with you)) that every class should have a spot/niche in the city meta, and the devs have confirmed more or less that this is their philosophy and they are actively working towards it.

Sometimes we end up with 3 BGs and/or 3 Shamans simply because we are a guild/alliance that doesn't solely stack meta classses. If our friends are online in the guild/alliance we try and get them into city. Typically we run 4 DOKs minimum (we have a lot of DOKs so not difficult) but those other 4 heal spots are up for grabs. Same with tanks - sometimes you take what is available and make it work.

And all this talk about AMs being trash yet I still see good order groups regularly taking them. Not having the defensive tools of a Shaman makes no difference at all when you don't have the option to pick a Shaman. In the current meta of nerfed mass morale drops pumping specific key morales became far more viable and is something the AM does very well.

Honestly, I don't think that every class should have a spot in the city meta otherwise it's not really a meta. Much like not every class has a spot in the 6v6 meta, or the PVE dungeon speed runnng meta (all 12 of you trying that), the best for locking down anything visible outside a keep (hi Engis and Magus players), the solo roaming meta. That doesn't mean you can't play those modes, just that you won't be the best at it. The current complaining is partially fueled by the fact that cities are the only place currently to get warlord and sovereign-level gear. Prior to city the top gear (in terms of item level, I know BIS varied from class to class) was Bloodlord and Invader, one of which is PVE and one is ORVR. The tier below is Oppressor (scens) / Vanq (orvr) and Sentinel (PVE) a bit behind it. Since cities we've had the 2 ranked scenario sets added which I believe are at Invader level, and then 2 sets higher than these (Warlord and Sov) which can only be *realistically* got from city sieges. ORVR royal crests as a bonus are nice.

Omegus wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:39 pm
Honestly, I don't think that every class should have a spot in the city meta otherwise it's not really a meta. Much like not every class has a spot in the 6v6 meta, or the PVE dungeon speed runnng meta (all 12 of you trying that), the best for locking down anything visible outside a keep (hi Engis and Magus players), the solo roaming meta. That doesn't mean you can't play those modes, just that you won't be the best at it. The current complaining is partially fueled by the fact that cities are the only place currently to get warlord and sovereign-level gear. Prior to city the top gear (in terms of item level, I know BIS varied from class to class) was Bloodlord and Invader, one of which is PVE and one is ORVR. The tier below is Oppressor (scens) / Vanq (orvr) and Sentinel (PVE) a bit behind it. Since cities we've had the 2 ranked scenario sets added which I believe are at Invader level, and then 2 sets higher than these (Warlord and Sov) which can only be *realistically* got from city sieges. ORVR royal crests as a bonus are nice.

I think there's a way to give everyone a "niche" in the city meta, without necessarily making it "everyone can fulfill every single role". For instance, being a decent "1 of pick" is enough a niche. If morale was important for instance, and the SW morale drain value was a lil higher, I could see them having a specific role in city wbs that they currently really don't.

The chance that we're going to see Engineers and SWs replacing BWs for the same spot in city wbs is certainly a pipe dream though. There will always be a meta, but there should be a way to make sure that every class in viable "in some comp", and honestly most "kind of" are. To your point on AMs and Shamans, they do have a niche.

I personally think the biggest outliers are clearly the WH/WE/SW at this moment. ASW can see some play, as can WE/WH, but they seem to not fit nicely into the cities whatsoever except on those ST assist train comps, which maybe is enough, idk. Maybe you're right, and we just haven't explored the meta enough to really understand what's possible. We are seeing some good Order groups run the ST train (Montauge running the ASW/WH comes to mind).

It also kind comes down to how this game was designed, realistically, every archetype has a "primary" class that's generally always been "the most useful".

For Healers: It's been the WP/DOK since the initial book/chalice changes.
For Tanks: It's been the KOTBS/Chosen since forever.
For MDPS: It's usually been Slayers/Choppas but Marauders/WL got enough buffs to compete.
For RDPS: It's always been Sorcs/BWs.

These are the classes that have always filled the "primary role" the best. Almost every other class in this game gets compared against these baseline classes for a spot in any comp/group. Just a legacy design issue of how the game was balanced in the first place. You don't bring a Magus/Engineer because they are going to kill like a BW/Sorc, you don't bring a Zealot/RP because they can easily outheal DoKs/WPs, they are already "niche" picks that bring something unique to the table.

You are 100% right though, this issue is really a currency/end game issue and if the city wasn't the only viable method to get "BIS gear" it wouldn't matter what the meta was or who is best.

gurtuk wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:39 pm It has everything to do with coordination, and no we don't double your numbers every night. take last night for example; it was about 45:55. whoever wipes who usually has the winning numbers after the wipe. But order still had right around 20% less than us in most of the main zones. order wipes us all the time when we have many more than them, you guys just need to follow up after you wipe us and push hard. I see a lot of instances where order wipes destro in a zone then does NOTHING. It's completely about coordination.

Again, destro with more than 2 to 1 numbers. It was 330 to 150 order. Destro took 3 forts all at the same time almost. Need to put CAP attackers based on people defending.

Better get used to it. Devs probably dont listen.

Congrats order on your 11th city win.