[Warrior Priest] - Grace

[ThePollie]

1- We don't lack mobility... Mdps have a 10sec immunity on a 1 min CD. We have cleanse to cure a lot of snares and some roots + we can heal a bit with HoT... We have basically the same mobility as WH/WE that do not have charge.
One cleanse every five seconds, for a snare that may be buried behind three or four other DoTs, and can be stacked repeatedly.

2- We have 0 utility. AoE snares need a tactic we can't spare atm, nor in T4. Tanks do that better anyway. M3 is not good. Well, it is good, but in a tough fight you'll never get to use it cause you'll need M1 or M2 99% of the time to make your group survive (M2, focus mind... immunity to roots on a 1 min CD... ya know) We have silence, true... But RP have stagger on demand. AM have Motm. Mdps have KD. Tanks have KD. Why waste immunity on silence ? Solo it is good. It is not an incentive to get into a group... Hey boys... I has silence ! See if that works...
We have utility, the fact is isn't great is irrelevant.

3- We need a stronger heal debuff then a 10 sec cleansable one on a 20 sec CD. But making 50% would be a good start.
I agree, but-

4- Making heal debuff in grace would let us be better melee healer then dok, who do more damage. I thought this was Azarael's point. Personally, Wrath or Grace is fine, as long as it has same CD as duration : 10 sec.
I don't agree with making it Grace.

5- WS is king. Premade all have softcap spirit now. In T4 even baddies will have softcap resist. Bring a chosen, it's even worse. It can be debuffed but so can armor. With 35-40% armor penetration, you'll do more damage then with spirit specially on light armor target. They can get to 50% mitigation with armor pots. bypassing 40% of it is awesome. If they get armor debuffed it is near 0 mitigation.
With the recent buffing of WPs, I have been noticing a lot more people capping spirit resistance.

For the lols, I took screenshot. As of today, with obliterator gear and a blue bandit 2 hander (500 strength, 400 WS, 14% crit chance with fanaticism), this is the potential we have for healing WITH BAD GEAR... Very close to some decent salvation WP. Decent damage. Less then DoK, but more healing.
http://imgur.com/mD76dnw

Sinceriously,
Lenie / Leningrad

[SilverWF]

The screenie doesn't really tell the whole story. There's no way of knowing what other classes are in the sc dealing damage how much was dealt, and how easy the tanks made the healers job with guard swap. This seems to be a bit deceptive as information to be actual evidence.

Sure, but not about everything.
For time elapsed and number of kills I can decide, that there was 2 groups of destro vs 1 group of order (or 1 good destro group vs 1 order group of just randoms). Then 1 more order group joined and start pushing destro but it was too late anyway.
Too bad there is no sorting on damage, but in visible part only BWs dealt more damage then him (and there is nothing wonder here). But "true" melee DPSers dealt less than him (with zero healing!), even destro mdpsers (over one mara but he was there since start, obviously)
Sure, we didn't know gear of all players there, but come on, he said he was in Obliterator - in T3 and vs 32 lvl enemies he was nearly naked. But still has not too much deaths, a lot of damage and a lot of healing.

[Eathisword]

@SIlverWTF : order healed less cause destro dealth less damage. Disintegrator was top damange at 170k or so. We had AoE BW with double that.

@Toldavf : SS is not meant as evidence of anything. I merely wanted to show that we are not (melee WP) as broken as some people in this thread wants us to believe. Disintegrator is a good melee DoK. My total numbers (damage+heal) are on par with his. And my healing was close to some good salvation wp.

SilverWTF is right : Radiance spam... and that's the problem. We can'T spec Wrath. There is nothing good in that line. Would cripple my healing, would add very little damage. In grace, after buffing with Sigmar's fist and S's vision, what's left ? Radiance : highest damage, highest Fury generation.

With 400WS it will hit for minimum 200 even on tanks... that's a 500+ group heal every GCD that goes through any heal debuff. It's too good to make it baseline. That tactic (Grace of Sigmar) is class defining. As of now, imo, we have 3 mandatory tactics : Divine fury, Grace of Sigmar and Fanaticism (+10% parry +10 crit). That's it for T3.

In T4 though, we'd have a choice for the 4th one since AoE detaunt is free now. One could run Leading the prayer for RNG survivability, Guilty Soul to pad the damage and healing numbers, Greave of Sigmar for a bit of a stats debuff. If Grace of Sigmar is free, that would open up some very broken spec. Leading the prayer + guilty soul + fanaticism is really strong survivability combo in a melee train. We can get to 25% crit in T3, so probably 35-40% in T4, without kotbs/IB/SW buff, which means Guilty soul would proc crazy on every smite + a lot of prayer proc from melee assist.

If the Heal debuf get 50% and stays an ability in Wrath, and Grace of Sigmar becomes base, it'S a no brainer : everyone goes Wrath, has a good heal debuff and crazy survivability. If we make Heal debuff a tactic in Grace, leave Grace of Sigmar as is, then we have a choice. Grace/wrath for more damage. Grace/salvation for more healing. Or forgo the heal debuff tactic for more survivability.

EDIT : I fooled around with Sigmar's shield. It is awful. 250 fury, for 1300 health. Main problem I see is that the healing number is influenced by Willpower. With my willpower gear, it heals for 200. In strength gear, 130. Reducing the cost significantly, and/or making it scale with strength would make it a decent life saver skill.

Anywa, my 2 cents.
Sinceriously,
Lenie / Leningrad

[Toldavf]

well spec is mearly a case of time, eventually you will have more points available just need a little patience.

Allot of classes are waiting to peak especially the melee ones. looking at the wp trees it could use a little very careful buffing as I believe when you spec a skill point it should be for something good not mediocre.

[PartizanRUS]

I can tell you from my personal experience of WP up to T4 with RR80+ is that two-handed builds was underpowered and ineffective compared to 1h+book and dps builds in Wrath tree was just a joke.
Why 2h builds was less effective ? You couldn't stand in front line and deal damage because you got focused/stomped in no time. When you can't strike with 2h you have class resource issues and less "output". It was less an issue with full Sovereign set, but 1h+book set became even more effective with it.
So we need something like 2h for healers with Willpower and +2/+4 Righteous Fury per second otherwise it will need full overhaul.

[ThePollie]

So we need something like 2h for healers with Willpower and +2/+4 Righteous Fury per second otherwise it will need full overhaul.

Adding an RF regeneration to great hammers, while neat, won't solve our problem. Grace actually does not have many abilities to spend RF, in the first place. Once Sigmar's Shield is fixed, that would change, but right now we only have Divine Assault and Healing hand. Both are easily manageable with Radiance alone.

[Azarael]

Adding RF regeneration to hammers is the wrong approach. That's Salvation's gimmick.

If some further means of bettering melee healers is required, look at granting Willpower buffs for hitting things.

[ThePollie]

Adding RF regeneration to hammers is the wrong approach. That's Salvation's gimmick.

If some further means of bettering melee healers is required, look at granting Willpower buffs for hitting things.

Agreed. Willpower on hit would better allow us to use Healing Hand and Divine Mend, though I wonder if it would be Purge-able or stack with other Willpower buffs, such as a Runepriest's or potions.

[Tiggo]

how about divine mend becomes an instant cast while using a 2h hammer? would make a bit healing while moving to next target possible and is bound to 2h hammer not affecting heal wp. And as it costs AP it has a bit of tradeoff too.

all in all i like the idea of balancing the grace wp via the 2h status as it wont affect 1h wp at all.

[Rebuke]

Make Sigmars Radience and Sigmars Fist do spirit damage (ups the damage a little and lessens "MAD" and let Healing Hand (a core HoT ability) be unaffected by the -20% healing tactics. You already took care of the aeo detaunt, which is good. I would advise giving sigmars vision a +10 dodge/disrupt instead of parry but that could be implemented later.