Improving the 2H blackguard playstyle

[Nanji]

WAR showed and RoR shows that there is a third way that works pretty good.

I don't follow what you are trying to say here. What 3rd way?

Partial mirroring. As it was done in WAR. Classes are not a direct mirror but share some similarities. Opens space to make them unique and adapt them to the lore provided by games workshop.

Now someone should say "but in lore the black guards had 2h weapons"
First of all afaik they didnt, it was halberds (giving +1str not +2 but wont hit last).
Secondly the heros, champs and even the captain of the black guard usually wore 1h weapons in artwork.

[Nanji]

Like less variables reduce the amount of equations you need to solve a problem.

Wouldn't you agree that MORE mirroring reduces variables, thus making it an easier problem to solve? I don't think we need to go that far, just ensure parity in the fundamentals.

Mirroring is a way to assure balance between the realms (not between the classes though).
Mirrored classes would be the easiest to balance, but do we want that? (mursi for sure )
100% sure we had a poll about that already.

[tomato]

Mirroring is a balancing tool which is used when you're to dumb to balance things otherwise. (no surprise mythic used it later on)
It's simplifying the game and should be avoided at all cost.

If you want mirrored gameplay, play chess. (Or most other boring mmos)

[mursie]

WAR showed and RoR shows that there is a third way that works pretty good.

I don't follow what you are trying to say here. What 3rd way?

Partial mirroring.

I'm ok with this approach - but know that partial mirroring was blurring pretty damn close to full-on mirroring towards the end. I agree - having all classes 100% mirrors of one another loses the lore and uniqueness aspect of the game that makes WaR - WaR.

I am not in favor of that. But, I think all can clearly identify the "intended" mirrors of each class between the two factions and I think it is more than appropriate to try and mirror the fundamental aspects of those said mirrored classes.

So - if you believe that the KD on the 2handed IB is not fundamental, then I can't argue with you anymore. I find it is..and as such believe it should also be on the 2handed BG.

Are there other variables in the expanded faction universe that potentially balance why this shouldn't be mirrored? Possibly. But I think we've both agreed that "less variables reduce the amount of equations you need to solve a problem." So let's mirror this for BG/IB... and if after that change it is obvious that destro is to overpowered because of racial tactic speed boosts...well - perhaps then we have a new issue to discuss. But at least at that point - the argument won't be convoluted to include balancing variables that do not appear on the surface to have any direct correlation to one another (i.e. the current lack of 2handed BG KD to speed boost racial tactics held by gobbos and the resulting balance it achieves when looked at via KD's possessed by order - wow what a mouthful, and yes - that's what she said).

[mursie]

Mirroring is a balancing tool which is used when you're to dumb to balance things otherwise. (no surprise mythic used it later on)
It's simplifying the game and should be avoided at all cost.

If you want mirrored gameplay, play chess. (Or most other boring mmos)

You can create an elaborate mathematical equation to solve for 2+2 = 4. But let's work smarter, not harder.

Discrediting mirroring because you think it's dumb is not very logical and largely just anecdotal generalizations.

Mirroring does work - we've already agreed on that. Mirroring has been done in WaR - we've already agreed on that as well.

We can agree to partial mirror as has been done - and that partial mirroring has been on fundamental aspects between mirrored classes. This appears to be, imho, one of those aspects.

[tomato]

Mirroring was done in war because mythic run out of ideas.

Comparing asymmetrical game balance with a mathematical equation makes no sense at all.
You can go the simple road by just mirroring all classes, which would completly destroy the game in my opinion or you can go the hard way and be creative.

Simplifying things isn't working smarter, it's beeing lazy.
I discredit mirroring because it destroys one of the core elements which made war great.

[Uchoo]

Mirroring between the classes is unimportant? So a spec being underwhelming or low on a tier list is okay if the rest of the realm is performing okay?

Mirroring is not "stupid", there is no scientific basis to that. Though by this point, it's something we could expect you to say, as enforcing your opinions by attempting to trivialize the opinions of everyone else has been common in what I have seen from you.

If you want to do so, at least provide some logical basis, rather than what seems to be an angry rant, so the "stupid" sentiment isn't (ironically) mirrored back to you.

A lot of you people enjoy games like WoW or Wildstar, where a class has the same abilities as you, because it in no way detracts from the fun or strategical aspect of the game. If you want to play a game where you never have a mirror matchup, that's okay too.

[Uchoo]

Mirroring was done in war because mythic run out of ideas.

Comparing asymmetrical game balance with a mathematical equation makes no sense at all.
You can go the simple road by just mirroring all classes, which would completly destroy the game in my opinion or you can go the hard way and be creative.

Simplifying things isn't working smarter, it's beeing lazy.
I discredit mirroring because it destroys one of the core elements which made war great.

You have no proof that mirroring was done because Mythic ran out of ideas. You may not like the idea, but it is still a fine one used by most games today.

Comparing anything with relevant math makes 100% sense in any circumstance, though it can be done in such a way to only provide one point of view on a subject.

I understand that you don't like mirroring, but I wholeheartedly disagree as I have played many games with mirrors and they work very, very well. They make balancing a lot easier, first of all. Usually in the sense of "twisting some knobs" for balance (tuning something by 5-10%). This allows a lot more time for the think tanks to work on important things.

Warhammer's unique aspect of the unmirrored classes should remain unique to it in my opinion, though. I do think that Mythic was on the right track by ensuring that mirror classes had the fundamental abilties they needed to succeed, like when BG's got Dark Protector, Shamans got Desperation, etc.

I wouldn't mind if you highlighted a single one of the parity balance changes they made that you dislike, so both of us could have some perspective on your opinion.

I would also ask that you remember what we are asking for, which is just another fundamental parity change; we are not asking to tear the entire system to scraps. Try not to jump the gun.

[tomato]

My view on the topic.

2h BG does have the biggest dmg potential out of all tanks due to having a wounds debuff (which is also utility), an anti detaunt, an ability with a very high tooltip dmg ( happens to be ae and utility aswell) and a reliable AA haste. Also being a double ressource class with less ap problems helps a lot.

AA haste becomes better the slower your weapon is, ideal for 2h weapons. Thats why, usually, tanks dont have it. IB has a very unreliable one. Buffing the dmg output significantly by doubling the number of autoattacks but still having the high multiplier for your aa dmg.

Wounds debuff, it is not as high as the mara one, but!!! you have the ability to spread it ae wise, applying snare aswell with a dok in grp. Without cd, unlike the chosen. So it is very unlikely to be cleansed (if it is possible at all, I dont know how it is in RoR).

Crimson Death, a high tooltip dmg (dmg base value) a BO can only dream of, even with shut yer face tactic. (the BO rarely puts points in this path to boost the tooltip dmg of shut yer face) (not saying the BO wouldnt crit for more on a low lvl AM without detaunt)
It is ae too. It is dmg and utility at once proccing snare (in grp) and wounds debuff (not likely to be cleansed). With only a 10s cd and can be used in combination with anti detaunt.

Knowing that BG is so strong on 2h, dmg wise superior to BO and Chosen, I highly doubt giving him kd is really necessary.

Why order needs more KDs than destru:
Due to the fact that destru has more speed increasing abilities. Usually 30% (25% on WE).
A 30% speed boost leads to -10% speed on destru side and -40% speed on order side with the assumption that both sides are snared. Order would be unable to catch up therefore they need hard CC. Without speed increasing ability snare is sufficient in most of the cases.
Please note that I am not saying destru doesnt need a KD at all.

Lets compare 2h BG to the other destru 2h tanks. Obviously you are switching out a snb tank for a 2h tank in order to deal more dmg, lets be honest, 2h almost always has less utility than snb.
2h BO would have KD if he wouldnt go for ae snare, which is pretty much the dumbest thing a destru grp could do. Dmg wise BO shines vs newbies (no detaunt, ultra squishy -> high crits), while BG can maintain a high dmg output on even skilled players due to anti detaunt and aa haste.
2H chosen, only interesting for tanks that dont know how to use challenge. Loosing fast moral tactic and defense for meh dmg. Wouldnt even consider it at all.

You already have the arguments against kd on 2hand bg.


Guess why I'm not playing wow or wildstar. Ty for proving my point.

[mursie]

Mirroring was done in war because mythic run out of ideas. This is a generalization - You are discrediting alot of intelligent people who worked on this game and spent 5+ years to make it better and better after each patch. The combat changes made - which mirrored alot of classes - brought a ton of balance to a game that was greatly imbalanced at launched. I'm glad you believe you can easily do what many many minds were unable to do at launch - create an asymmetrical game that is well balanced. But then again - after reading most of your posts, it should not surprise myself or anyone that you would have this type of opinion.

Comparing asymmetrical game balance with a mathematical equation makes no sense at all.
This comparison was made in light of an equation with variables remark made by one of your fellow guildmates - balancing an equation can be made easier or more difficult based on the # of variables present.

You can go the simple road by just mirroring all classes, which would completly destroy the game in my opinion or you can go the hard way and be creative. I appreciate that you have identified this is your opinion. It is a welcome change to most of your posts.

Simplifying things isn't working smarter, it's beeing lazy. We can agree to disagree on this.
I discredit mirroring because it destroys one of the core elements which made war great. I'm full for partial mirroring - as long as the partial mirrors are on fundamental aspects.