[Split] Marauder discussion

[bloodi]

Atm the only counter to guard + heals (exepts super punts) are big damage dealt in few seconds (burst), if you cannot kill something you need to fast swap target untill something going down.

I will give you a secret illuminati tip that may have gotten past you.

You can also swap guard targets.

[Tesq]

Atm the only counter to guard + heals (exepts super punts) are big damage dealt in few seconds (burst), if you cannot kill something you need to fast swap target untill something going down.

I will give you a secret illuminati tip that may have gotten past you.

You can also swap guard targets.

that's exatly why you need a cc patch to make cc more relevant:/ (and for relevant i dont mean 9 sec stags but something more proportinal over classes)

[bloodi]

that's exatly why you need a cc patch to make cc more relevant:/

Yeah lets cc the guy who can block/parry a **** so i can swap targets.

I mean, cc has no cds after all.

The problem with guard is how few damage a good tank gets from it, being able to parry/block guard damage is stupid.

[Azuzu]

There are ways to deal with guard, punt + snares, switching kill targets faster than they can react, split dps.

Don't get me wrong, im not downplaying the strenght of gaurd. I just have always been a fan of the unique style guard helps to give WAR.

Let's be honest, most tanks do a poor job of guarding and most groups are killable even with guard. I like that the mechanic rewards good group oriented play.

Guard gives a unique dynamic to the game, where during the fight you have to bait, sperate tanks from the guarded and react as the fight develops.

I'd hate for the game to simply be 3 dps on a target = dead target.

I'd hate to see guard change, because I think it's such a core part of WAR.

[Genisaurus]

Spoiler:

Do you want to discuss the T4 meta as it was in 1.4.8, or the meta we could have once we arrive there? I don't think a lot of people appreciate the range of changes that could be made in the name of balance - they look only at changing individual abilities on certain classes.

What if, long term, balance were discussed with the goal of bringing classes more in line with the RPS dynamic?

Spoiler:

The original Mythic dev diaries promoted the idea of a Rock-Paper-Scissors approach to archetype balance. Tanks would be resistant/great at shutting down MDPS, who would in turn be able to demolish RDPS, who would in turn be the best at destroying tanks. You kind of see this shine through in the final product - MDPS get charge, which helps them catch RDPS, but then their snares are often shorter than their cooldowns. Every RDPS has access to magic damage (Tanks traditionally have lower resistances than armor), but a few are then hamstrung by having their highest damage attacks do physical damage. Tanks do alright against MDPS, but then some MDPS get flat "Ignore X% of armor" abilities, which disproportionately impact tanks (as opposed do "Ignore/Reduce X Armor Value, which impacts soft targets more).

All the little exceptions make the classes harder to balance against one another IMO, and encourage cookie-cutter team compositions and class builds.
What if 2-handed ranged weapons got a passive +10% armor penetration?
What if DoT ticks could crit again?
What if softcaps on resists were increased/removed?

While it has to be understood that no changes, especially ones as far-reaching and massive as those above, would be made until after T4 is complete and we have a baseline to compare against, I think we need to have an end-goal in mind. Certain principles we hold as we consider balance changes, instead of just, "Nerf <FotM>/Buff <FotM>."

To your point, half the community can't even remember what classes actually were OP/UP in WAR. We definitely need to at least relive the meta first.

Spoiler:

please not again this rock paper scissor talk, how tank gona deal with massiv inc? they will just melt?
also not really smart rewamp all the system.

tank must be hard to kill dosen't matter vs who..... and doing low dps
mdps must do medium damage and being medium durable
rdps must do dons of damage and melt

this make game enjoyable to play, otherwise tanks would just be ppl that need to do whatever it takes to not be killed.

This arguments it's just brought on the table by ppl that hates def tanks cos they dont know how to counter them.
Atm each classes feal doing what he should exatly, the fact that some classes may have lesser dps output than other or have less support in party it's the problem not the total overbalance of the arch type.

wtf i play a tank for if 1 ppl can jsut bring me down easily cos the system is rock papper scissor?

it will only suck, game will became a **** kite only game melee would die like does in other games cos tanks takes too many damage.

And also it's alredy set on this degree. Resistences soft cap is set at 40% vs a 75% from armor there is no need to rework a system that is fine.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying any of these changes should happen. I'm simply saying that when future balance changes are discussed, they should be discussed with the understanding that we can make big changes if desired, but big changes require thinking about how classes and their abilities interact (something Mythic never did). RoR's source code developers are not limited to simply pushing abilities around mastery trees and changing tooltip damage values.

Also, it doesn't matter if half the community can't even remember what classes actually were OP/UP in WAR. What really matters is: do the Devs and Core testers remember?

Because we act unilaterally and without regard to what the community wants? I get your point, that at the end of the day the line in the sand is drawn by the people with fancy-colored names, and maybe that also give our words more weight, but I would like to think that we're aware of our own shortcomings. I played with, IMO, one of the better WLs on Gorfang for years, and so I can say with some confidence that T4 WLs are at best sub-par. But if we were to discuss specific balance changes for the class, I would have to go to him/the community.

And also it's alredy set on this degree. Resistences soft cap is set at 40% vs a 75% from armor there is no need to rework a system that is fine.

Again, I'm not saying these changes should or shouldn't be made, just that they are options. But just to play devil's advocate on this specific point, the softcap was only introduced in 1.2. So while it may work fine now, does it work better than it did before 1.2? I'd argue that Mythic made a lot of big, sweeping changes like this without considering how it affected each class. A lower softcap on resists is great for the magus looking for some extra DPS and who lacks a resist debuff for their single-target damage tree, but it is also a huge boost for Sorcs/BWs, whom people might want to spec/gear defensively against and have always complained the loudest about (regardless of whether they deserve it). Resists literally mean nothing in T4, because you're always at softcap. There's no element of choosing whether I want to protect against elemental damage or corporeal, because I only have enough gear slots to max one out; my defensive potion will always be armor, because softcap resists on all three damage types is just assumed.

Was this one of those poorly thought-out changes for which Mythic was known? Maybe, maybe not. Was it needed at the time? I don't think anybody could specifically remember the situation that warranted the change. Could we test reverting it for a week or two, to see how the game plays? Sure.

[Azuzu]

Stuff You Said

I get completely what your trying to get at.


Personally, I wouldn't want to see big broad stroke balance changes. I loved what WAR was, I don't want to see the fundamental balance of WAR to be changed.

I think people are asking for specific class changes, because they like the game, they think things are mostly in a good place and they just thing a few tweaks need to be made to a couple classes.

I do get what your saying tho, something like armor penetration to bows/guns would be a was to buff SW/Engi/SH without having to change the class themselves.

Some classes have different issues, BO/SM have utlity issues, WL has talent tree/utlity issues, SW/SH/Engi have dmg fall off because of Armor values getting too high.

[bloodi]

I'd hate for the game to simply be 3 dps on a target = dead target.

I'd hate to see guard change, because I think it's such a core part of WAR.

I hope you understand that one doesnt correlate the other.

And frankly, i may have the same feeling about Guard but at the end of the day i think its nothing more than fear of change, guard its such a staple that if anything needs to change, that should be it.

And as i said, with just something that makes Tanks have to think about dropping their guard beccause they are eating too much damage it would be enough.

[Luth]

Maybe just change it, so guard damage can only be blocked, not parried.

[Azuzu]

I'd hate for the game to simply be 3 dps on a target = dead target.

I'd hate to see guard change, because I think it's such a core part of WAR.

I hope you understand that one doesnt correlate the other.

And frankly, i may have the same feeling about Guard but at the end of the day i think its nothing more than fear of change, guard its such a staple that if anything needs to change, that should be it.

And as i said, with just something that makes Tanks have to think about dropping their guard beccause they are eating too much damage it would be enough.

Well, unless healing or survilbity is increased, I feel like 3 dps assisting on a target would equal a dead target.

This game doesn't have enough CC outside of snare to peel melee trains off a target. The only thing that keep them up in guard plus healing.

Guard is a substitute for control to mitigate damage.


Give me a 1 minute massive AoE mez and you can take that guard.

[Azarael]

Maybe just change it, so guard damage can only be blocked, not parried.

Good troll