[Split] Marauder discussion

[Coryphaus]

Awsome I can push my blade of ruin to cave in mirror idea in that thread

[Genisaurus]

Let's start a new thread, aimed at the T4 endgame meta, looking to balance for 6v6 and look at the glaring discrepancies between realms on certain abilities

Go for it. Likely to be more productive than any thread singling out one class.

I agree with both these posts. It seems like a lot of people's opinions on balance are being colored by the current T2 state of the game.

The thing is, RoR is different than live. If the RAs arnt all active, the endgame maybe different. I think to truly make an informed decision on t4 balance here, we will need to play RoR T4, something none of us have done.

Do you want to discuss the T4 meta as it was in 1.4.8, or the meta we could have once we arrive there? I don't think a lot of people appreciate the range of changes that could be made in the name of balance - they look only at changing individual abilities on certain classes.

What if, long term, balance were discussed with the goal of bringing classes more in line with the RPS dynamic?

Spoiler:

The original Mythic dev diaries promoted the idea of a Rock-Paper-Scissors approach to archetype balance. Tanks would be resistant/great at shutting down MDPS, who would in turn be able to demolish RDPS, who would in turn be the best at destroying tanks. You kind of see this shine through in the final product - MDPS get charge, which helps them catch RDPS, but then their snares are often shorter than their cooldowns. Every RDPS has access to magic damage (Tanks traditionally have lower resistances than armor), but a few are then hamstrung by having their highest damage attacks do physical damage. Tanks do alright against MDPS, but then some MDPS get flat "Ignore X% of armor" abilities, which disproportionately impact tanks (as opposed do "Ignore/Reduce X Armor Value, which impacts soft targets more).

All the little exceptions make the classes harder to balance against one another IMO, and encourage cookie-cutter team compositions and class builds.

What if 2-handed ranged weapons got a passive +10% armor penetration?
What if DoT ticks could crit again?
What if softcaps on resists were increased/removed?

While it has to be understood that no changes, especially ones as far-reaching and massive as those above, would be made until after T4 is complete and we have a baseline to compare against, I think we need to have an end-goal in mind. Certain principles we hold as we consider balance changes, instead of just, "Nerf <FotM>/Buff <FotM>."

To your point, half the community can't even remember what classes actually were OP/UP in WAR. We definitely need to at least relive the meta first.

[Coryphaus]

dont dots already crit? i know that my iron breakers binding grudge and heavy blow dots crit....i think

but i would love if you guys made 2hs more viable options cause 10% strikethrough is garbage, i also feel that making blade of ruin into a cave in mirror would make 2h bg viable

[Luth]

cause 10% strikethrough is garbage

If it would be strikethrough, but it is only block-strikethrough, which is totally useless.

[Tesq]

Do you want to discuss the T4 meta as it was in 1.4.8, or the meta we could have once we arrive there? I don't think a lot of people appreciate the range of changes that could be made in the name of balance - they look only at changing individual abilities on certain classes.

What if, long term, balance were discussed with the goal of bringing classes more in line with the RPS dynamic?

Spoiler:

The original Mythic dev diaries promoted the idea of a Rock-Paper-Scissors approach to archetype balance. Tanks would be resistant/great at shutting down MDPS, who would in turn be able to demolish RDPS, who would in turn be the best at destroying tanks. You kind of see this shine through in the final product - MDPS get charge, which helps them catch RDPS, but then their snares are often shorter than their cooldowns. Every RDPS has access to magic damage (Tanks traditionally have lower resistances than armor), but a few are then hamstrung by having their highest damage attacks do physical damage. Tanks do alright against MDPS, but then some MDPS get flat "Ignore X% of armor" abilities, which disproportionately impact tanks (as opposed do "Ignore/Reduce X Armor Value, which impacts soft targets more).

All the little exceptions make the classes harder to balance against one another IMO, and encourage cookie-cutter team compositions and class builds.

What if 2-handed ranged weapons got a passive +10% armor penetration?
What if DoT ticks could crit again?
What if softcaps on resists were increased/removed?

While it has to be understood that no changes, especially ones as far-reaching and massive as those above, would be made until after T4 is complete and we have a baseline to compare against, I think we need to have an end-goal in mind. Certain principles we hold as we consider balance changes, instead of just, "Nerf <FotM>/Buff <FotM>."

To your point, half the community can't even remember what classes actually were OP/UP in WAR. We definitely need to at least relive the meta first.

please not again this rock paper scissor talk, how tank gona deal with massiv inc? they will just melt?
also not really smart rewamp all the system.

tank must be hard to kill dosen't matter vs who..... and doing low dps
mdps must do medium damage and being medium durable
rdps must do dons of damage and melt

this make game enjoyable to play, otherwise tanks would just be ppl that need to do whatever it takes to not be killed.

This arguments it's just brought on the table by ppl that hates def tanks cos they dont know how to counter them.
Atm each classes fell doing what he should exatly, the fact that some classes may have lesser dps output than other or have less support in party it's the problem not the total overbalance of the arch type.

wtf i play a tank for if 1 ppl can just bring me down easily cos the system is rock papper scissor?

it will only suck, game will became a **** kite only game, melee would die like does in other games cos tanks takes too many damage.

And also it's alredy set on this degree. Resistences soft cap is set at 40% vs a 75% from armor there is no need to rework a system that is fine.

[Penril]

I agree with Tesq (shock!!!!)

Also, it doesn't matter if half the community can't even remember what classes actually were OP/UP in WAR. What really matters is: do the Devs and Core testers remember?

[Jaycub]

Tanks in WAR are unlike any other game because guard exists, and guard literally controls the metagame.

No one is trying to bring down the tank, they just have to deal with your guard, and the only way to do that is via punts... which is super cheesy and most people don't even realize this. And CC immunities buffed guard into the stratosphere.

[Azuzu]

I agree with Tesq (shock!!!!)

Also, it doesn't matter if half the community can't even remember what classes actually were OP/UP in WAR. What really matters is: do the Devs and Core testers remember?

I think most of us agree, before we can have a real conversation about balance here on RoR we need to experience endgame here on RoR. Before that it's all just pissing in the wind.

Tanks in WAR are unlike any other game because guard exists.

ToR had guard, DAoC had guard (much stronger than here).

Mythic likes the guard mechanic

[Jaycub]

It had reliable counterplay tho, not sure about ToR.

The problem with WAR is there is little to no counterplay to guard.

The perfect combo that our group tries to run anyways... is punt the guard with IB long punt, instantly KD the DPS, stagger backlines if available and just do a big burn with incoming heal debuffs etc... for the ~3-5 seconds you have that opening.

If either of them have CC immunity up (which is pretty likely) you can't do **** about a guarded person, you only options are to either continue beating on them and getting nothing out of it, or taking the big risk of overextending into their backlines to fish for unguarded targets.

IDK how many insanely boring MTs I have done where both sides have good comps w/ at least 4 tanks and you got people doing 250k damage with 1 or 2 deathblows and the timer runs 15 minutes and like 8 kills are scored total.

It gets a little better in t3/4, but not much.

I understand most casual players don't notice this problem, or even care... but it is still frustrating that such a strong mechanic has almost no counterplay... even if it only shows up in "high level play".

[Tesq]

guard it does not need a counter part , guard itself it's counter part to those problem you know about other games that do not have a guard system.

Atm the only counter to guard + heals (exepts super punts) are big damage dealt in few seconds (burst), if you cannot kill something you need to fast swap target untill something going down.

The solution to guard should be tactic and so crow controlls but unless a CC patch drop from heavens things not gona changes.