Return of Reckoning

Scenarios

- The scenario manager will now try a bit more to get balanced setups.


As a dps I have been waiting for 3 hours prime time and no sc pop.......can we please revert this change more people than me are complaining in game.
This change have been tried before and it just dont work out that good.

wargrimnir wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:42 pm

nonfactor wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:22 pm

wargrimnir wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:07 pm You know what based on what? I don't talk with you, or any other players regarding balance for that matter. I would rather people don't know my personal opinions on specific balance changes as most people can't be trusted to hold honest conversations and would rather use an opposing opinion as weapon. That's a pretty significant reason why balance is almost entirely done behind closed doors, and I assume that's a reason why most devs over the years haven't bothered writing detailed notes about why we make changes. We absolutely knew and critically considered that changing how the damage applies had other consequences. Stop framing staff as ignorant simply because you disagree.

Then why did you change the bonus from 40% to 20%, essentially nerfing entire class and every build, instead of changing abilities which were overperforming?

That change wasn't aimed at the abilities that may be overperforming which you're quoting here, but rather it was aimed at the stacking damage mechanic on its own merit. That's what I've been saying. They're different changes. This forced equivalence is being made when it had nothing to do with the changes. Kind of hand waving away the fact that 40% bonus damage might be a problem by holding distracting conversations about other abilities that might also be a problem. There were also technical issues with how the stacking damage mechanic was implemented, but math is hard and the last round of implementation for it needed to be cleaned up. I believe Dalen went over those details already in this thread.

Even to i hate you bigger then the book of grudges wargrim, this is actually first time u turned it around from being an utter prick to being The better man. Credit where its due. Well played.

geezereur wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:20 pm Scenarios

- The scenario manager will now try a bit more to get balanced setups.


As a dps I have been waiting for 3 hours prime time and no sc pop.......can we please revert this change more people than me are complaining in game.
This change have been tried before and it just dont work out that good.

Use /5.

wargrimnir wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:42 pm

nonfactor wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:22 pm

wargrimnir wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:07 pm You know what based on what? I don't talk with you, or any other players regarding balance for that matter. I would rather people don't know my personal opinions on specific balance changes as most people can't be trusted to hold honest conversations and would rather use an opposing opinion as weapon. That's a pretty significant reason why balance is almost entirely done behind closed doors, and I assume that's a reason why most devs over the years haven't bothered writing detailed notes about why we make changes. We absolutely knew and critically considered that changing how the damage applies had other consequences. Stop framing staff as ignorant simply because you disagree.

Then why did you change the bonus from 40% to 20%, essentially nerfing entire class and every build, instead of changing abilities which were overperforming?

That change wasn't aimed at the abilities that may be overperforming which you're quoting here, but rather it was aimed at the stacking damage mechanic on its own merit. That's what I've been saying. They're different changes. This forced equivalence is being made when it had nothing to do with the changes. Kind of hand waving away the fact that 40% bonus damage might be a problem by holding distracting conversations about other abilities that might also be a problem. There were also technical issues with how the stacking damage mechanic was implemented, but math is hard and the last round of implementation for it needed to be cleaned up. I believe Dalen went over those details already in this thread.

Knowing what the patch aimed at/why is obvious (it's in the patch notes). What I am questioning is the aiming itself, remember the office paper bin fire analogy I made in the first post about precision and fires? Another analogy; I am a swat team member dealing with a hostage situation and instead of shooting the robber I shoot the hostage intentionally to take away the robber's leverage over us and take him into custody. Now I'm questioned on why I shot the hostage and I explain "yes that is who I was aiming for, I dealt with the robbers in my own way" but there is still a problem. I'm not comparing anyone to a murderer in any way, so please dont take it like that, that's the simplest/most accurate analogy that came to mind at the time, other than the office bin fire one.

How hard is it to determine why you nerfed engi/magus flat damage overall?: Is it because you think it is overperforming? Yes. Now how are you concluding this? City/scenario scoreboards: You can't judge it any other way unless you look at the damage dealt by each of their abilities in combat log tested with realistic specs and BIS gear (the unlikely method given the resulting patch).

The other method (that one that you mentioned) of determining that they are overperforming; was by having a think that "the fact that the 40% bonus damage might a problem"
That's it? Well how about the fact that +35% crit chance and +100% crit damage might be a problem? or the fact that +50% flat damage might be a problem? But they are not. When someone complains about slayer, what do they say? They mention either rampage or ID. Will you nerf slayer bonus damage by 20% to counter these? Probably not, their mechanics are not as simple as flat damage bonuses with no drawbacks.

There's no maybes about hard evidence, granted I have posted none of it here, but I can provide it anytime to those genuinely interested through discord or w/e.

Not saying your team is ignorant, however like myself, they can be at times like any human. So you critically considered the consequences of the defendable napalm patch, thats good, geniunely. But was boosting napalm/mist damage by 40% bc of turret mechanic one of those considerations? No, I highly doubt it, firstly because the intention was to balance/nerf the ability, so why would you boost its damage by up to 40%? Doesn't make sense, so therefore it has an unintended side effect/bug yet nobody from the dev team is willing to acknowledge that or revert the damage back to what it should be. Maybe you DO have a patch planned for it and I am just being hasty? I wouldn't know, that information is hidden. So this is why I am questioning it. Casting a veil can be as much damaging as it can be helpful.

So a quick recap of why this particular patch exists in the way it does:
Engi/magus is overpeforming. > How so? First identification (pointed out by me) was napalm/mist. Solution? Making it defendable > Engi/magus still overperforming? Therefore it cannot be napalm/mist, because it was just nerfed. (except it was actually buffed) > Next logical solution overlooking the accidental napalm/mist buff? > Balance the whole class mechanic. There is an error in the logic, not a disagreement or distraction

wargrimnir wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:42 pm Kind of hand waving away the fact that 40% bonus damage might be a problem by holding distracting conversations about other abilities that might also be a problem.

I am currently leveling my slayer just to see how does 50% damage from berserk + 60% damage from rampage mechanics + 90% crit damage tactics while low oh hp work all toghether. I am trying to say that 40% damage of magus/engi doesn't seems to be that big of a deal here.

Shanell wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:53 am

I am currently leveling my slayer just to see how does 50% damage from berserk + 60% damage from rampage mechanics + 90% crit damage tactics while low oh hp work all toghether. I am trying to say that 40% damage of magus/engi doesn't seems to be that big of a deal here.

Spoiler:

And, if I were smart enough to use basic math I would probably just calculate damage % increase by all of the above, but where's fun in that?

Didn't we already read on the forums that +crit dmg is useless, because of TB?
Your defense is halved as well, so all others deal a lot more damage to you as well, it's no damage buff without significant trade-off.
What rampage mechanic damage increase? You mean Retribution?

I would assume the way of thinking was about high base dmg spells with added +40% dmg bonus on top but that's just a guess.

Magus/Engi and " overperforming" lol. Its a joke right?

Magus is overperforming with all the healdebuffs, knockdowns, range snares and more usefull stuffs for group play right?
Oh wait there is nothing really usefull for group play
Maybe an aoe stagger to slow the enemy zerg down if some of your group mates overextended...

Just compare Magus/Engi with other range classes and you cant say he is overperforming.

If the enemy is not moving, the magus have no pressure from melees or something and you have enough time (around 10 seconds) THEN you deal good damage and only in this situation the magus is better from dps as an SH for example.

If you need to kite/move, your dmg is laughable, even with BiS gear.

If you have pressure, your dmg is laughable

If you attack healers which know to cleanse, your dmg is laughable.

Overall if you try to attack healers, its hard to get the dots on them, its no problem for healers with armor stones to get 40-50% disrupt. Hard for Magus.

Or compare the Dmg with the 20% dmg + 15% from the dot with the dmg from DPS AM, as a magus player you can only cry... cry that the devs are completly blind to see this problem.

Even without resi debuff, Dot hits from BiS DPS AM deal slightly more dmg as the dot hits from Magus/Engi and they dont need to stay, and they have 100ft with all of their dots,

Oh and DPS AM have healdebuff, aoe range slow, ap leech, 5 second silence (lol), aoe punt and they can heal/clenase themselfs.


I absolutely cant understand how a dev can say this classes are overperforming. Just compare them to any other rdps class but not only check their dmg, you should also see their utility in groups, things like healdebuffs, slows and stuff.

Magus/Engi are on the top of dmg in citys? Yes its fluff dmg, put napalm or mist in 24 enemys and see how fast you get dmg.

Oh Magus/engi have some DBs in city? Yes morale drops and all these small dmg ticks if you wipe the enemy WB....How many good Magus/Engis are out there? 0,1% maybe?

Reverse this unnecessary nerf and focus on more important things, classes which really need some adjustments like SHs.

@Sulorie Magus/Engi have no high base dmg spells.