Overarching balance changes

[bloodi]

Don't need to create anything. Nerfedbuttons can easily do that.

No, no, that addon is just to help disabled gamers so they can play our game, it never gave any benefit whatsoever or played for you, at least thats what they told me in the discussions around here.

I concede please no bully

If you flag for forum pvp be ready to accept the consquences, you just went into the warzone

[Jaycub]

Don't need to create anything. Nerfedbuttons can easily do that.

No, no, that addon is just to help disabled gamers so they can play our game, it never gave any benefit whatsoever or played for you, at least thats what they told me in the discussions around here.

I still think it updates too slow, it works for pre-existing conditions just fine, but so does buffhead and set of eyes :^)


The best use I have found for it so far is creating a function where one button uses crafted pots then medallion pots saving a key and allowing you to just double tap it.

[kweedko]

Don't need to create anything. Nerfedbuttons can easily do that.

In Nerfedbuttons we trust.

[Bozzax]

I'll be an ass hat and quote myself since I suspect (group) cleanse leading the poll comes much from dok/wp dominance.

I'd try cast on move for 2.5s group heals instead of messing with cleanse and TTK to break the DOK/WP domination.

[Jackiee]

But what benefit does that entail? Making people freak out and create addons that yell at you "BB/WoP is ON CLEANSE NOW"

The current cleanse system extends ttk, makes people think about what debuffs they use first and so on.

Your system just makes healers able to cleanse the key debuffs and there is like 1-2 guys at max using debuffs, as long as they dont suffer lag issues.

Its just a matter of what system its more benefitial to the game, i think the current one is quite better.

Thats more a testament to the fact that addons ruin this game. The current system is absolutely not beneficial from a game balance perspective, cleansing currently is garbage and you would only bother to do it if you have full AP or arent under pressure.

That having been said, if nerfedbuttons is just going to play the system then there would be no point to changing it. Doesnt make the current system good though, by any means.

[Genisaurus]

Twenty Five pages, and nobody has mentioned Immaculate Defense yet?

The temptation to poke the hornet's nest is strong. Or maybe it's kicking a sacred cow. I dunno, what metaphor do you think works better?

ID is great, everyone loves it, and everyone gets it. Insofar as balance goes, it's fine. But with rare exception, no tank would ever slot a different Morale 4 ability. They take too many mastery points to get, and they're terrible. The cost for investing in them would maybe pay off if they were Morale 3's, but they can't compete with ID at all.

So how do you buff the other Morale 4's to be equal to or even better (considering they cost 16 mastery points) than reducing your team's damage by 75% for 10s?

Spoiler:

You don't.

The value of ID is that it protects your party against damage from all sources. How much damage can a single BW/SO put out? How much could a party put out? A warband? Once you have those numbers, how do you scale an absorb bubble to protect the same amount of damage? A bubble removes 100% of incoming damage, but it's gone once its limit is reached. And that limit isn't affected by armor or resists like the damage that passes through ID. You wind up with absurdly high bubbles when you try to find parity.

How do you scale a damaging ability to be worth the tradeoff of ID? You'd wind up with an instant-7000-damage morale. An almost guaranteed 2-3 kills in exchange for the almost guaranteed survival of a party. But an "I Win" button like a 7k damage AoE is absurd.

So you meet in the middle. Bring ID down to 66%, and swap it for the specced-Morale 4 in the middle tree for each tank. Buff and normalize the non-ID morale 4s for each tank (including the one that's now core)

Or you do something completely different with specced Morale 4s in general, which are almost universally garbage.

[Jaycub]

I was thinking about morales, specifically the huge imbalance of M2's and M3's in the game between classes. Some classes get really good ones, some get really **** ones.

Also I think it was a mistake making all 16pt morales M4, would be nice to see mastery M2's for example.


Problem with morales is a lot of them seem to focus on dealing damage (which can't be avoided or mitigated(?)) so balancing that at the warband level is really hard. If you tweaked morales it would be easier to create unique morales that didn't deal damage, or rework some of the mastery morales into m2's/3's.

[peterthepan3]

good points, geni. never really thought about morale abilities in that sense, and the huge discrepancies that exist between them/different classes.

[roadkillrobin]

Twenty Five pages, and nobody has mentioned Immaculate Defense yet?

The temptation to poke the hornet's nest is strong. Or maybe it's kicking a sacred cow. I dunno, what metaphor do you think works better?

ID is great, everyone loves it, and everyone gets it. Insofar as balance goes, it's fine. But with rare exception, no tank would ever slot a different Morale 4 ability. They take too many mastery points to get, and they're terrible. The cost for investing in them would maybe pay off if they were Morale 3's, but they can't compete with ID at all.

So how do you buff the other Morale 4's to be equal to or even better (considering they cost 16 mastery points) than reducing your team's damage by 75% for 10s?

Spoiler:

You don't.

The value of ID is that it protects your party against damage from all sources. How much damage can a single BW/SO put out? How much could a party put out? A warband? Once you have those numbers, how do you scale an absorb bubble to protect the same amount of damage? A bubble removes 100% of incoming damage, but it's gone once it's limit is reached. And that limit isn't affected by armor or resists like the damage that passes through ID.

How do you scale a damaging ability to be worth the tradeoff of ID? You'd wind up with an instant-7000-damage morale. An almost guaranteed 2-3 kills in exchange for the almost guaranteed survival of a party. But an "I Win" button like a 6k damage AoE is absurd.

So you meet in the middle. Bring ID down to 66%, and swap it for the specced-Morale 4 in the middle tree for each tank. Buff and normalize the non-ID morale 4s for each tank (including the one that's now core)

Or you do something completely different with specced Morale 4s in general, which are almost universally garbage.

Nerfing ID is a massive nerf to Destruction.
Swapping Mastery m4's to m3 might work.

[Shadowgurke]

Twenty Five pages, and nobody has mentioned Immaculate Defense yet?

Not just ID, the same goes for pretty much every M4. It's not just the payoff. Almost all classes lose so much utility for a morale that they barely use. You could make an M4 that would reduce all damage by 100% for 10s and most tanks would not take it. Case in point: Khaine's Warding from the BG is better than the M4. Even if you were to spec the middle tree and you just the AoE snare (3 points to M4) you don't get it because you lose other stuff that you can spam consistently over the Morale that is up once every 5 minutes.

If you want to make them worthwhile turn them into an M1/m2 and maybe slightly balance numbers