[Suggestion] Making guard less OP

[Annaise16]

The extra percentage values came from scen emblem shields and armor percentage buffs. I didn't even use a shield until I reached rr55 on the SM.
But I used Eagle's Flight much more often in the earlier levels. I only started using the shield when I started coming up against a lot of rr70+ dps. This was in the pre-80+ days.

mate again, you claim to have a flat 10% parry from WS and a flat 30% base block rate in any bracket from 1-40/90. that's how you are able to avoid 40% of the incoming guard damage. yet you have no evidence for that nor can you explain where the missing WS comes from.

also i'm waiting for an answer about which sense it makes to go 2h, with absorb and WS renown abilities on a SM if that build is the question for the above mentioned question.

all you do atm is trying to defend yourself by throwing in classed based abilities which were never a contentious part of my question.

I mostly avoided being killed by guard damage by not being truly careless.

how did you do this? leaving the guard range cause you couldn't tank the guard damage? so basically you admit here that you had to CARE about guard damage? so if you had to CARE about it, why would you nerf it?

you should really stop it right here unless you have anything based on evidence.

Lol. I think this is a l2read issue. I didn't write that I had a flat 30% from Shield rating, etc. I wrote that the Block and parry values against Guard were the values on the paper doll. They are not the flat values from shield rating and weapon skill. They include percentage buffs from gear (and renown abilities, as well, although I didn't spec for these.) With regard to my SM, it had better than 30% Block. I don't remember the parry value, but it would have been near 10%. Other tank classes that do spec weapon skill probably had better values than 10%, while still being able to have 30+% Block.

You have been wrong about everything you have posted in the arguments you have had with me on these forums. Perhaps, you should stop posting.

[Scrilian]

B...but you were retired D:

[Tiggo]

A full def tank that can survive tons of guard damage but does nothing but guard and CC is a wasted slot anyways.

Why do you people take this as a basis to discuss guard? Seems like some ppl are butthurt because they can't kill guarded/healed targets without a decent grp.
But as stated earlier, this is mostly a l2p issue.

this. speccing a tank to not die whatsoever, totally cripples him. IMHO this is enough trade in for guard. And if the tank is off specced (still snb) he WILL die from guard eventually and/or require lots of single heal.

[Tiggo]

Yet Warhammer is probably the only game with a real tank archetype when it comes to PvP. He can protect and peel for his group. Guard is a huge factor of this and should not get touched at any point unless the OP or any person asking for it is able to provide evidence. Atm i can't see that happening.

The current time to kill is already fairly low, especially when playing order. I doubt that will change in “our” super late game, which is miles away anyway. Range dps were benefited already quite a lot in the latest game update. They will scale pretty well into t4. No need to benefit them more. Note: rdps is by far the easiest to play archetype (low risk/high reward). Considering the fairly low defense values in t4, the available pocket items and renown abilities, i fail to see how any buff to them - and that's what it is - would be justified.

On the other hand zergs would get another advantage over groups. Great, right?

If you really want to pug down this game on paper: keep going. Destroying a working meta system can be so easy. All you need to do is giving voice and attention to the wrong people.

It's getting really hilarious that all these threads are allowed to stay open. I know we live in 2016, have free speech (hi murica i know you love me for this) and that RoR is a community project but honestly: WAR's meta is working well. Having 1k people online daily - most of them in PvP - should be a proof. Spare me this "dis is alpha" and "we can test" bs. We're not testing a new game, we're recreating a already working one. Gimping it down by implementing stuff like this shouldn't be a goal.

I suggest to create a requirement for these kinds of discussions. The requirement is called evidence. If the suggestion does not have any, the topic gets closed. Easy as that.

- RETIRED FROM FORUMS -

not?

but i guess you are right :=)

[Idrinth]

One thing that should never changed is adding cooldown for guard-change. I never played tank on live, but in my opinion switching guard to the right/wrong target is a sign of (or lack of^^) skill for tanks. And you can´t know which target your opponents select next in advance.

On live there was a cooldown - a very annoying one. You needed to disable guard first and then enable it, costing precious global cooldowns.

Regarding parry buffs and block buffs:
Most damage a defensive tank wanted to avoid was not effectively avoided by putting in more parry or block, but some way of reducing the number(armor, toughness,resists), meaning that few defensive tanks would be able to have a permanent 90%(or similar) damage avoidance against guard damage.
Usually reaching maximum numbers there required min-maxing, channeling and/or similar things, that reduced the overall performance of the tank by a huge amount.

Offensive tanks(twohanded): guarding required a reasonable defensive guard target to not just die within seconds, since the defences were laughable.
Offensive Tanks(shield): guarding was a bit less harmfull, but still dealt some very unconftable amounts of damage, since the shields did not remove a large amount of that damage
Medium tanks(twohanded): Usually the avoidance and reduction values were higher, but similar to a offensive tank you did still notice the incoming damage. Guarding really soft targets is still a bad idea.
Medium tanks(shield): With increased damage reduction, guarding softer targets is an obtion, even if that will still require single target heals on you from your healer.
Defensive tanks(twohanded): At this point the lack of a shield mostly limits the tanks to more damage reduction, so guard damage is still noticeable, while other damage will be a relatively low risk(outside being focussed). As long as the guarded target is not extremely squishy or focussed it should work fine.
Defensive tanks(shield): will likely be ignored by groups and can deal with guard damage relatively well, so is the tank to take the really squishsy targets. Due to not usually being attacked directly, a lot of damage reduction is actually wasted here.

There have been extremes beyond the named defensive(Tesq I recall) or offensive tanks(me sometimes), but neither are really a good choice outside solo-play, since the defence pretty much can only use skills not requiring to hit targets(little strength), while the offensive one needs a guard on them to survive being squishier than mdps and bringing lower(or at best similar) damage.

Having someone guarded in a decent group has literally NO drawback for a tank and THIS is the issue i have.

I would need to disagree on that, guard still requires a lot of attention to details due to the tiny range even from a defensive tank. Also most kinds of tank will need to work on keeping themselves alive, since single target healing is usually not avaible for a tank.

Guard does have existing counterplay. It has been said that the existing counterplay is somewhat limited (ie super punts).

Superpunts are now available for all tanks except BO/SM. That means every group should have that punt.

While BO/SM can do ridiculous amounts of dmg. Countering guard with dmg.

When leaving pretty much all defence at home, BO/SM could deliver quite nice spikes(before TB), yes, but that came at an insane cost for survivability, that made guard duty next to impossible.

[Bretin]

I didn't write that I had a flat 30% from Shield rating, etc. I wrote that the Block and parry values against Guard were the values on the paper doll. They are not the flat values from shield rating and weapon skill.

You said the block rate was normally about 30%. That sounds like a pretty flat value to me. Also you claim to get 10% parry only by Weapon Skill. I told you how much WS is necessary for it. Yet you can't explain where you had it from.

I don't remember the parry value, but it would have been near 10%.

"would have" sounds like pure invention.

again: 467 is needed 221 is base 246 is missing. do the math, you are known for it.

Other tank classes that do spec weapon skill

so you didn't spec WS, where does the 246 come from? Gear? Talis?

Why do you avoid basically ALL questions? I'm still waiting for the WS explanation and for the explanation why you are asking for a guard nerf when you had to CARE about guard damage.

[Scrilian]

Yet Warhammer is probably the only game with a real tank archetype when it comes to PvP. He can protect and peel for his group. Guard is a huge factor of this and should not get touched at any point unless the OP or any person asking for it is able to provide evidence. Atm i can't see that happening.

The current time to kill is already fairly low, especially when playing order. I doubt that will change in “our” super late game, which is miles away anyway. Range dps were benefited already quite a lot in the latest game update. They will scale pretty well into t4. No need to benefit them more. Note: rdps is by far the easiest to play archetype (low risk/high reward). Considering the fairly low defense values in t4, the available pocket items and renown abilities, i fail to see how any buff to them - and that's what it is - would be justified.

On the other hand zergs would get another advantage over groups. Great, right?

If you really want to pug down this game on paper: keep going. Destroying a working meta system can be so easy. All you need to do is giving voice and attention to the wrong people.

It's getting really hilarious that all these threads are allowed to stay open. I know we live in 2016, have free speech (hi murica i know you love me for this) and that RoR is a community project but honestly: WAR's meta is working well. Having 1k people online daily - most of them in PvP - should be a proof. Spare me this "dis is alpha" and "we can test" bs. We're not testing a new game, we're recreating a already working one. Gimping it down by implementing stuff like this shouldn't be a goal.

I suggest to create a requirement for these kinds of discussions. The requirement is called evidence. If the suggestion does not have any, the topic gets closed. Easy as that.

Really nothing to add here, 10/10 great post

Spoiler:

[Annaise16]

One thing that should never changed is adding cooldown for guard-change. I never played tank on live, but in my opinion switching guard to the right/wrong target is a sign of (or lack of^^) skill for tanks. And you can´t know which target your opponents select next in advance.

On live there was a cooldown - a very annoying one. You needed to disable guard first and then enable it, costing precious global cooldowns.

.

I'm pretty sure that Guard didn't have the gcd on live, but lag could make it feel that way. When swapping Guard, you had to wait for the server to recognise that you had removed Guard from the first toon before you could apply it to a new ally. It might have even been a 2-way lag, sending the signal to the server and then receiving a message back from the server before you could swap.

Guard was also very touchy about line-of-sight. It seemed like you had to have a really clear view of your ally when re-applying Guard.

[Annaise16]

I didn't write that I had a flat 30% from Shield rating, etc. I wrote that the Block and parry values against Guard were the values on the paper doll. They are not the flat values from shield rating and weapon skill.

You said the block rate was normally about 30%. That sounds like a pretty flat value to me. Also you claim to get 10% parry only by Weapon Skill. I told you how much WS is necessary for it. Yet you can't explain where you had it from.

I don't remember the parry value, but it would have been near 10%.

"would have" sounds like pure invention.

again: 467 is needed 221 is base 246 is missing. do the math, you are known for it.

Other tank classes that do spec weapon skill

so you didn't spec WS, where does the 246 come from? Gear? Talis?


What is it about the word "about" that you don't understand in this context?

I'm sorry if you have a problem with round figures. Perhaps, in future, we should provide 5 significant figures when quoting values.

Why do you avoid basically ALL questions? I'm still waiting for the WS explanation and for the explanation why you are asking for a guard nerf when you had to CARE about guard damage.

What is it about the word "about" that you don't understand in this context?

Perhaps, in future, we should provide 5 significant figures when quoting stat values. I'm sure that will provide much greater illumination.

[Tesq]

guard had lag using enemy switch,
block rate from sov shield was around 40%,
base defense by stats were around 5-7% in 1.4.0 (tank with 0 point spended in initiative/willpower/wep skill)