Dear DPS Healers.. from Us

[mursie]

That was a core issue raised in the other thread - which direction to take. Either we attempt to make them work as mixed classes leaning towards one specialisation, or we rework the mechanic to power the Vaul tree's lifetaps, or we screw it all and make them work as either pure DPS or pure healers depending on spec.

This shouldn't be impossible, even for 6 man, as long as people accept that the pure 2/2/2 setup isn't the be all and end all, and mixed classes can and should be made to compliment one another within such a setup.

Agreed. those are the options.

1. try to balance hybrids.

2. Screw it and make all players play a designated pure archetype.

One's opinion about which option to take is just that - an opinion.

[Culdu]

Again quit funny how agro some people get seeing or hearing about dmg healer
Who damn cares ? If u get them rolled in your random grp in scenario, could have also been a "real" dd would that really make a differnce to you? Only coz the dd is called shaman or runepriest or dok ... ? No, it wouldn't.
Only that the class is able to heal does NOT mean that the Player behind is playing a healer! So if you piss these people by flameing them they wouldn't skill heal, they would perhaps reroll a dd, or well, they should just ignore you.
If you don't think that they are valuable, don't invite them in your grps, like you do it with ppl with "usefull" 2-2-2 classes of whom you think they can't play their chars or whatever. But damn stop flameing ppl in bgs or in forum. If you have bgs without a healer, that's bad luck, invite your own to make sure u have one befor u sign in. BUT that you don't have a healer is not the fault of other dmg specced classes.

Greetings Starilas

by the way, good sacrifice dok can heal enough

[Jaycub]

Yes but if you do hold the opinion that AM/Shaman are to be pure healers only, That should also mean you believe the class design is an unmitigated disaster.

2 out of the 3 trees and about the same amount of core abilities don't even deal with pure healing at all, and the life tap tree is in no way shape or form a viable way to heal.

Turning these classes into pure healers would mean a total rework. It would be much easier and add to the variation of classes in the game to embrace their hybrid nature in both healing and DPS spec. Meaning a healing spec AM could also deal some kind of meaningful damage, and a DPS AM could do some meaningful healing similar to how DPS WP/DoK work atm usually dealing damage and healing in a 1 to 3 ratio?

[mursie]

Yes but if you do hold the opinion that AM/Shaman are to be pure healers only, That should also mean you believe the class design is an unmitigated disaster.

agreed.

And for full disclosure - Yes, my bias is towards the design that swtor ultimately implemented. it absolutely and undeniably fixed the entire whine about hybrid dps healers that were bull-shitting ranked solo play by speccing dps (and thus having the match-making place them as dps) but were infact quasi-healers and borking all gameplay results.

The discipline system - which basically just took the toon's three trees and made each tree stand alone and REQUIRE that the player pick ONE and ONLY one tree... was really very effective. It eliminated all the bs. If WP went wrath - they were dps - period. If they went heal tree... they were heals... period.

I am not against having each class have the "ability" to spec an archetype (i think that is quite cool). I just hold the opinion that it needs to be one and only one. To improve match-making and to end the whine. Once you pick a specific tree...then let's talk about its balance and whether that said tree holds up for said toon for said role.

Now - in the framework of WAR... is that system hard to implement. Holy hell yes. It's a major overhaul. But guess what, hybrid balance...it ain't no simple tweak either. You go down that rabbit hole...and you may find your entire game closed before you ever truly fix it

[Penril]

Agreed. those are the options.

1. try to balance hybrids.

2. Screw it and make all players play a designated pure archetype.

One's opinion about which option to take is just that - an opinion.

Again, DPS healer =/= hybrid.

[Jaycub]

I guess the arguement is whether or not hybrids should exist in WAR. While they do now they don't really fit in with the "meta"

Like penril said they can work well in a 3-2-1 group, which is actually the entire reason I rolled my AM recently so I could mess around in guild groups and see how well they function in certain group comps. I've done probably 150+ scs with a group on my AM so far, and in a 2-2-2 group they just don't have the burst or DPS output to really warrant a spot over a potentially guarded MDPS and in the realm of RDPS they also don't perform that role better than SW/BW, and no one wants to guard a smelly dps AM :^)

In 3-2-1 they work well because they CAN heal a bit and insta res etc... which will sort of make up for the loss of a tank. However the problem I see is that 3-2-1 comps are trumped by 2-2-2 comps atm, at least if you are playing against people of similar skill. And that is the same problem facing other hybrids like grace WP?

Again, DPS healer =/= hybrid.

I would consider the current state AM/Shaman to be hybrids, A good SC for me I usually do 50-80k dmg and about 30-50k healing.

[Azarael]

That's because hybrids aren't even implemented correctly at the basic level (MAD problem). That has to be solved before making any judgments regarding how hybrids do or do not workr.

[Bretin]

wow, just wow...
somehow i must play a different game than most people posting on this forum - most likely the same ppl over and over.

once again: literally every "hybrid" class works perfect and has a certain use. if people fail to see that, it is clearly not a balance but a l2p issue. honestly i'm sick of using this term but it's a fact that most people posting in suggestion threads either lack expierence, knowledge or common sense.

there is a reason why WAR has a complex Mastery and Renown concept, if you can't handle the system and fail to see viable options i highly recommend to go play a shooter - but wait the weapon choice could already be to imbalanced and unfair for certain people in this forum.

what do you guys want? a class healing as much as a salvation specced WP while dishing out the damage of a marauder combined with choppas enrage mechanic? why don't we add a shield and start to negate the whole game concept because some casuals can make a specific class work?

if you're mad about people playing a class other than the common g2g build that doesn't mean they do something wrong. If you're mad because you died "because of the bad dps healers fault", try to fix your l2p issue cause the death could've been avoided in 95% of the cases either by forming a group or playing at least with half a brain.

i'm honestly sorry for acting like a prick but what is this? a range white lion, a fbb specced bw who never drops combustion and dies to his own combustion damage and some other keyturner trying to change a working meta game and a great mastery system?

there is a reason why this game has always been in mind of thousands of people for being the best PvP experience and there is a reason why you guys play that game on a daily base! ever thought about that this reason can be determined by "because it works"? i honestly doubt that our coffee shop operators, supermarket employees and what not ppl inside this community do for live, are able to design a game as good as the mythic staff. they had failures, we have some things to tweak but this game works almost perfect compared to any other pvp mmorpg and the devs of RoR - who do an insanely good job (all of them) - should not get baited into drastic fail changes like the ones who were suggested by several ppl in this thread.

[mursie]

once again: literally every "hybrid" class works perfect and has a certain use. if people fail to see that, it is clearly not a balance but a l2p issue. honestly i'm sick of using this term but it's a fact that most people posting in suggestion threads either lack expierence, knowledge or common sense.

Well - there you have it Azarael. No need to do anything. All is working perfectly fine as is. Just wish we hadn't wasted 25 pages on it.

[Jaycub]

Strawman and subtle adhoms

How long will you last on the balance forums bretin :^)