ORvR rework+ DOOMSDAY : All the truth

[Wam]

I play for fights... win or lose I don't care about dying, i have pushed many fights I shouldn't of if omg i can't die in mmo.
If i cared about dying i would not put limits on recruitment and run around as 3 warband ball... but that would be boring for all.

Fights is everything in this game... its what make's it have epic feel... large scale orvr/pvp, playing together as a team/guild/realm
For me, the rank up compared to previously... under old system you would have to own zone a for a long period of day, run alot of supplies (with possible interception) and basically dominate the zone... and I feel if you lost domination of zone for a small period of time you would derank alot faster

Under this system, you can play fight avoidance 101... wait in keep and be massively rewarded for passive gameplay, passive gameplay and not pro active, so people are taking advantage of flaws in the system and just waiting to use unlimited ammo cannons... and stacking multiple warbands in bottlenecks, there is little need to spread and little need to send out manpower to reclaim bo's... you only need to send a wh or 6 man... and just semi owning one BO will make the war of attrition last even longer and more drawn out

It becomes a boring grind playstyle... yes it is do able, but at what cost? the cost of fun and open field fights... I am comparing how things was last night in TM compared to a few months ago... the only open field fights was mostly at DV and GK... and again thats funneling spots, there was little action else where in the zone at HW/KP compared to normal... but on a few other raid's it was similar little amount of warbands actually roaming around fighting over bo's compared to the past... just wait for keep defence and bunker with siege (eataine, ostland, TM... Praag to name just a few)

Cannons are being spammed and abused more than normal... with the saftey of postern being locked due to maximum reward for minimum effort and massive influence of supplies without actually contesting the zone and earning upgrades... I would have less of a problem if they was actually earnt fairly and fought over but there is no interception... i have seen us hold four bo's and enemy keep not derank... and when it does finally start to derank its such a long drawn out process, and this is where we have a very dominant zone...

Also the numbers was high in TM... but the fights was low because of this "bunker" mentality and taking full advantage of system... op cannons, and lack of interception, and safety net back postern locked.

Ram on gate is also buggy... so that even makes it more laborious for attackers

Cannon's have trouble shooting inside chokes from the outside... so again advantage to defenders...

So what is the point in actually pushing the zone/campaign... you don't get any extra benifit, you have alot of disadvantages... and if it was about loot, many times the losing side gets more bags (even if they are mostly dupes for alot of people)

If both sides took the wait... come at me bro mentality... you know how long it would take order to have to de rank that 5 star keep in TM... even if they owned four bo's... down to less than 1 to have a chance? The common theme is "time" and "fight avoidance" and "supply disparity" which unfortunately leads to lesser gameplay experience than previously under the older system... if the supply ratio got fixed and Cannon's less abused maybe this system will be okay, I give everything a chance to test.

You saw 3-4 wb's in order keep... I saw 3-4 wb's in GK once (funnel spot) ... and maybe one Wb a couple of times at HW/DV... a few months ago i would see 2-4 wb's of order everywhere in the zone for hours, more ambushes more fights. At the moment BO's dont really need to be fought over, they can be ninja'd quite easily while everyone else just bunkers down.

TLDR: Current system is a laborious grind for pushing a zone if any half organised defence at a cost of open fights/fun (it is easy to defend... especially with 3-4 warbands, no flank, one body block bottle neck, oil... then cannons) too much cat and mouse, not fluid enough it becomes stagnate and more like KV... I don't love the "lockout on bo's" i think that was asked... but it made the game more fluid and people move around the zone a little, and that was also because the supply interception was a huge deal. It made fighting over BO territory more important (instead of ninja cap BO after people leave)

sorry if i repeat myself a little just trying to convey how orvr experience as changed from what I see and not for the better so far testing... thats from over 20 hours of testing over different maps and days to give a fair reflection

Kinschel a rr 47... knight of blazing sun gets well over 100 kills in 30 minutes to a hour... because of Cannon Abuse
Everyone knows Tato is a RDPS beast and one of the best players...
So a lowbie tank that isn't even having to melee outscores one of the best rdps in game as well as all other order...
little risk maximum reward that shows the problem with current system and cannon abuse...

https://imgur.com/a/oer4p

[Collateral]

After these last few weeks, I think we can see who is the culprit for the slogs here. I would say it's the open bos, like Wam pointed out. Sure the cannons and keep ranks need to be worked on, but we need to look at the system itself. Ever since the timers and guards were removed, people started sitting on bos and blobing up, no matter if it's just one rp per tick. I was one of those that thought it would actually be the exact opposite, similar to scs (at least most of scs), but it clearly isn't. I really liked the change you did before the new system, reducing the bo timers by more than half. That made you not sit on a bo for 6 minutes waiting for lock. We could roam more from bo to bo and lock them up faster. Now, as Wam said, people just wait to ninja them back after the enemy leaves, then stand on it again and get ticks. In the zones with lower pop, we would frequently kill the same lowbies on bos who leeched ticks, and they would just go back not even caring if we came again. There is no incentive to fight. Yes the ticks are super low, but it seems people rather choose that (path of least resistance). Even soloers wait on bos ffs, classes that are meant to roam around ganking people. Now they get ganked by an entire wb. But why do they do it? Because they can, and they are rewarded for it (very poorly, but still). I agree that one person shouldn't be able to cap a bo. If you choose to play this style, you are not doing it for bos in the first place, or I hope so at least. I proposed to hargrim that only more than 6 people should be able to cap (or perhaps at least 3) but it was refused. This is a group game, we hear it constantly when people complain about getting rekt by premades, yet soloing is rewarded like that in the most important part of the game? If you want to influence the grand campaign, I say you need a force of 6 at least.

So to conclude my point, the bos are the biggest problem. Returning to timers would improve the system again imo.

[Hargrim]

So to conclude my point, the bos are the biggest problem. Returning to timers would improve the system again imo.

You know you haven't provide any reason to enable timers again, right? All you mentioned were ticks at BO, so the easiest sollution here would be to just remove them, right?

[Collateral]

That's another solution, but I feel it wouldn't do much. I would love to be wrong though.

[Hargrim]

That's another solution, but I feel it wouldn't do much. I would love to be wrong though.

So why the timers are so good? Also, those people would get back to guarding mailboxes instead of BOs.

[kirraha]

read wams post. as I said my engliah is mostly laughable

I did and summarized it - too much ammo and keeps derank too slow. Anything else?

Spoiler:

Need more open field fights to farm people more effectively No one likes to be wiped at the keep doors

Ill try take the discussion as you seem interested.
The amount of cannons spawnable? Maybe make less cannons spawnable, and/or decrease the amount of dmg they do. I dont think it makes any sense having 4+ cannons giving players 100+ kills. Cannons shouldnt give kills to the ones using them. Imo they are to be used to get rid of ppl pushing into opposite team wc or scatter enemies at siege or kill the ones who dont react to it. Now with the high amount of them, the dmg and easy acess they just feel too much.

The standing on BO to get recourses. I thought the carrying recourse was acually good. Soloplayers and WB:s were carrying the recourses and as ppl used cannons it depleted the keeps recourses.

Wam did mention more than just keep deranking and ammo. You see some of my own words above aswell.

[Haojin]

for real guys ? zone locks are waaaay faster than before and scenario type BO's creating small skirmishes which is very nice imho. i suggested give some pve elements for BO's for example generate champions/heroes/lord every x minutes to prevent people being afk + little push up for xp/rp. options are limitless [just imagine a lord appears on BO if it's camped hard by a zerg, then lord despawns if its not killed in x minutes.]

the only problem atm is superfast R5 keep and brokenly disgusting aoe cannons nothing else [hargrim fixed it already]. also, it's a nice blast that actual keep fights are back. i still insist underdog keeps should be like that: if underdog got x amount of aao, no matter how many stars keep goot posterns shouldnt be used by attackers. [or another option, destroying postern doors with ram]

if you guys remember how live is: if a keep funneled like no tomorrow; go other zone and push the campaign for city siege, actually it was a disadvantage for funnelers.

also wam, if you really care for you isolated own fights, i suggest stop broadcasting on /2 /t4 mate, it really helps. also, chasing solo players into wonders of pve causes waste of time. at the end of the day, hard zerg deserves hard funnel. period.

my suggestions:

1-making bo's more interesting for solo/6man/24 man/zerg while holding it.

2-toning down aoe cannons warcamp/keep and disable getting medals for kills. [it's really problematic]

3-diminishing ratios is ok but what if keep autoteleports people if it's funneled hard. [maybe a anti funnel system like old forts?]

[Hargrim]

Ill try take the discussion as you seem interested.
The amount of cannons spawnable? Maybe make less cannons spawnable, and/or decrease the amount of dmg they do. I dont think it makes any sense having 4+ cannons giving players 100+ kills. Cannons shouldnt give kills to the ones using them. Imo they are to be used to get rid of ppl pushing into opposite team wc or scatter enemies at siege or kill the ones who dont react to it. Now with the high amount of them, the dmg and easy acess they just feel too much.

The standing on BO to get recourses. I thought the carrying recourse was acually good. Soloplayers and WB:s were carrying the recourses and as ppl used cannons it depleted the keeps recourses.

Wam did mention more than just keep deranking and ammo. You see some of my own words above aswell.

Thanks. I usually don't troll too much.

I think we will reduce the number of cannons you can spawn and deploy by keep to include the ones you have from ranking the keep, they will count to the limit you have. If they are destroyed you will be able to spawn more.

Damage was already nerfed (like today) by Torque from RAW (this is what morales do - not mitigated and not avoidable) to normal. This will probably be adjusted (higher dmg) but should already be avoidable by use of HTL.

Kills on cannon are non issue for me, sorry. This sound like epeen measuring contest .

Resource carring will be reintroduced at some point, they will drop from players around BOs.

Hope this address your issues.

[Hargrim]

1-making bo's more interesting for solo/6man/24 man/zerg while holding it.

2-toning down aoe cannons warcamp/keep and disable getting medals for kills. [it's really problematic]

3-diminishing ratios is ok but what if keep autoteleports people if it's funneled hard. [maybe a anti funnel system like old forts?]

1. I'm not against it (and some other team members), but I don't see it as a way to get XP / Rewnown. You can level character playing casualy (2h / day ) in under 2 weeks now.

2. This is in progress. Also from my experience single target cannons were better than AOE.

3. I have no idea why it should - attackers can zerg whole zone at keep gates, but defenders have to be TPed out? Doesn't seem right to me. Smell a bit like footpatrol2 idea to limit people in zone and queue them at entrance before they can play. Not a fan.

[kirraha]

Sounds very interesting indeed. I havent noticed you already change it today, thanks for telling me that. And I would be very nice see recourse carrying or any other change from as it is now about the BO:s.

I can prob. express it very clearly but Im not after making anyone upset.

Well it was prob. nice for that kotbs getting the kills on his cannon. Poor thing... (sorry sorry couldnt help )

Its not a huge issue tbh with the killcount on cannons, just a bit pinchy on the nose. But thanks for your reply. Now my bg can have top dmg in sc and topkills! :3