Return of Reckoning

DefinitelyNotWingz wrote:
Outgoing stacks with incoming in a certain way. If the healer is debuffed he will heal 50%, the inc reduces those to 25% if I am not mistaken.
Incoming hds are almost always covered several times. Not very likely to be cleansed. If it happens anyways the must ve been cw or m2 involved, or the setup needs a tweak.

Outhealing dmg with 50% is more likely than with 25%.

I know that they stack, but i still dont get your point from the post before? What i was trying to say is that double DoK always works better than 2x WP in and against every setup.

noisestorm wrote:

DefinitelyNotWingz wrote:
Outgoing stacks with incoming in a certain way. If the healer is debuffed he will heal 50%, the inc reduces those to 25% if I am not mistaken.
Incoming hds are almost always covered several times. Not very likely to be cleansed. If it happens anyways the must ve been cw or m2 involved, or the setup needs a tweak.

Outhealing dmg with 50% is more likely than with 25%.

I know that they stack, but i still dont get your point from the post before? What i was trying to say is that double DoK always works better than 2x WP in and against every setup.

And this is what I oppose. Double dok can be easily countered by ib, while wp/wp has disadvantages but there is no hard counter because their healoutput does not suffer as much from outgoing and order has access to several healblessings. Which should stack, at least they did on live.

Is Kiss of Death uncleansable by WP?

Penril wrote:Is Kiss of Death uncleansable by WP?

Should be an ailment, have never seen it being cleansed by wp.

DefinitelyNotWingz wrote:
And this is what I oppose. Double dok can be easily countered by ib, while wp/wp has disadvantages but there is no hard counter because their healoutput does not suffer as much from outgoing and order has access to several healblessings. Which should stack, at least they did on live.

The fact that you say "incs are covered anyway" is imo not really approriate. If i assume we run a Kotbs/Ib+ Sla/Slay or Sla/WH setup, the 2 doks will solely cleanse the debuffs from the slayer and the wh, meaning the healdebuffs are pretty much uncovered, or rapidly removed in the first place. Also like i said before your IB actually needs to reach one or better the 2 Doks, Both can stand about 60 feet to each other and another 60 feet to their melees. Meanwhile the Ib can still be slowed,kicked, or will be out of range of his guardee giving other openings.

Saying it again: Having to reach a backline healer to apply an outgoing is harder than having an inc debuff on whatever your Melees are focusing in the first place.

mara +we ST split in two every wp

IB? dok cannot even clease KOBS snare ......

Not only dok get **** easier by a rkd if he try to be more front line, it also cannot avoid being snare-->reach--->KD+super punt by both kobs/IB while wp just lol ppl with range aoe detaunt and do wtf he want more behind.

then ppl wonder why ppl played back lines....... it's a **** suicide be front line like this, if the tanks miss 1 snare or a bad luck want that the other tank defend the snare you can end with healer/s dead in few time.
Thx for this the too much damages and heals in game.

you can bury your ailments with rend

and last i checked late game according to gankbus and co. x2 mara were the apex mdd combo which means you shouldnt have issues with hdbuff upkeep nor is it hard to keep target snare up if your running big brawlin

Penril wrote:Is Kiss of Death uncleansable by WP?

It is uncleansable yes. If a WE focuses a 2x WP setup the WP will have an effective 25% healrating on himself..

DefinitelyNotWingz wrote:

Penril wrote:Is Kiss of Death uncleansable by WP?

Should be an ailment, have never seen it being cleansed by wp.

If it is uncleansable by WP i guess it might be balanced then. WE has an easier time getting to the WP than an IB anyway. At least in the initial clash where the WE can stealth and jump the WP, while on the other hand you can see the IB coming at you from a mile away. Also, Inspiring attack has a 5 sec CD, while Kiss of Death is a proc.

I don´t know, just pointing that out. If you guys think Kiss of Death is an acceptable outgoing HD counter for WPs and balanced with IB/Doks, then neither side would benefit more than the other one with a range decrease on WP/Dok heals.

Still, not sure if reducing their heal range is a good solution (don't remember if i agreed with it on earlier pages, won't bother checking, if so then i guess i changed my mind now).

Silly idea that could be completely silly but think about it and just let me know how silly (or not) it is: what if cloth healers could cast group heals while moving, but the cast times were increased? Gather round (shaman) takes 2.5 secs while stationary. What if it could be cast while moving but it instead took 3.5 secs or something like that?

noisestorm wrote: The fact that you say "incs are covered anyway" is imo not really approriate. If i assume we run a Kotbs/Ib+ Sla/Slay or Sla/WH setup, the 2 doks will solely cleanse the debuffs from the slayer and the wh, meaning the healdebuffs are pretty much uncovered, or rapidly removed in the first place. Also like i said before your IB actually needs to reach one or better the 2 Doks, Both can stand about 60 feet to each other and another 60 feet to their melees. Meanwhile the Ib can still be slowed,kicked, or will be out of range of his guardee giving other openings.

Saying it again: Having to reach a backline healer to apply an outgoing is harder than having an inc debuff on whatever your Melees are focusing in the first place.

Sl/Sl and wh/sl has 2 hds available and many many debuffs to cover them. If you are still getting your debuff cleanse the rotation may be flawed. Especially with wh who can apply 2 debuffs in 1 gcd.
Ib has to cover 35f until he can get to the dok for sure. (earthshatter, since you have a kobs permasnaring the train you can afford that) then you apply an outgoing reducing the enemies heal by 25%. Totally biased if you ask me.
Starting 100f away the dok actually has time to react and back off so the ib has to leave his guarded target behind. Taking a big risk. Please note that the ib only has to reach a dok every 20s. While the bg has to constantly reach the wps.
I wouldnt even specc outgoing hd vs wp/wp.