[Warrior Priest] - Grace

[Deadpoet]

Concerning the proposed changes to Sigmars Shield, I agree completely. Id like only to add that given the main problem of the melee healer, needing to hit to be able to do his job, and the absolute lack of cc or anti cc to stay on a target, another problem of Sigmars Shield is that the WP might find himself unable to use it on many occasions, just when he needs iw most to survive (ccd, kited, snared, etc. In fact Id male it a castable self buff like kotbs or bg self armor buff.

[peterthepan3]

I can understand if BOTH WP and DOK will get melee detaunt (like WH, WE, Choppa, Slayer, Mara and WL have)
But.
You gave 100 feet AOE detaunt and only to WP!

Seriously? Where it was discussed? In this thread? I found only 1 post from that man (honestly, didn't tried to search well - just last few pages before patch), who even didn't know that classes well.

10% parry base
50% Heal debuff easily achievable compared to a 25% crappy one
Much better burst DPS with the Sacrifice devour essence

This change should be welcomed by both DOKs and WPs alike; that melee healers are being looked at! It isn't going to fix everything, but its a step forward in the right direction.

WP:
10% block penetration
10% parry buff and it's really easy achievable
11 points is more easy than 9 points? Go read builder again.

About burst: 1. this is not burst, but BS. 2. Care to show us how to take Devour Essence and healdebuff tactic at the same time with AOE detaunt?

Lol.
You got a character ingame so I can show you? Or just ask that Starilas dude to show you.
I didn't say you can get both the heal debuff and devour essence - I just pointed them out as superiors to anything the DPS WP has to offer.

You're starting to irritate me now. All I ever see is you posting horse crap on every topic.
Would love to show you a comparison between the two classes ingame. What names do you use?

On topic:
I -personally- believe this AOE detaunt change should apply to both DOKs and WPs. I know we're only discussing WPs atm, but if a few changes (sigmar's radiance not requiring a tactic and being default, a devour essence equivalent, giving wrath/torture a str/ws or str/toughness tactic to replace the old detaunt tactic) were implemented, then both classes would be on a similar playing field, though still with their differences.

[Genisaurus]

Again, as a disclaimer, I have not played a WP, so take this with a grain of salt.

I think a Brute Force mirror or a split tactic like you're suggesting would thematically belong in the Wrath tree. As such, maybe it could replace Intimidating Repent outright. This would take the option for a Targetted AoE Detaunt away from book healers completely, but would leave the option open to all DoKs. In effect, this shifts the balance scale a little in the direction of the DoK - not so much that the DoK is better, just a little bit in that DoKs have a survivability option that WP would lack.

If the Grace of Sigmar tactic were to leave, it would be by replacing the default numbers for Sigmar's Radiance. As I've said before, a 50% lifetap is poor from a mechanic standpoint. Even with the base heal, it implies that the design of the ability is more about the damage than the healing, which is backwards. But if you got rid of that tactic, for any reason, I might suggest a tactic that made autoattacks a tiny lifetap as a replacement. Maybe heals your defensive target for 25% of autoattack damage. Now, if that were going to be mirrored to the DoK in the future, there's going to be a tradeoff between them doing more autoattacks, but for less damage, and maybe the %'s will need to change for both classes.

Replacing the Wrath tactic would be fine. It would still be within cross-spec reach of Grace, if we thought to make use of it. The lifetap on Autoattacks I'm not so certain about. At least not at 25%, though perhaps not at all. Even with a crit, I average 450 damage on an autoattack. 25% of that would be only 112 health. After mitigation and with the slow speed of great hammers, I'd much rather ignore the tactic in favour of Leading the Prayer, which has the average of providing me with an extra 272 health every second, and the potential maximum of 1600 health with a lot of luck.

Like I said, grain of salt . But in this case, using your numbers, it would be an AP-free 112 health every three seconds to your defensive target, not just you. You have to contrast that with a ~62% chance (20% chance for 5 groupmates) of a 272 heal to yourself every second. The final numbers are (on average) 168 hp for you every second, or 112 health every 3 seconds to our defensive target. That seems like a more fair trade-off to me, but maybe the numbers still don't make it worth it. That's fine too, just throwing some ideas out.

[SilverWF]

Only you could try to say that this is better than 10% parry (or anything but a waste )

I only said, that WP has it and it helps to fight with tanks. DOK didn't have it.
WP also has 10% parry buff in the proper tree. SO here they are equal.
But you are listening to that guy, who didn't said about that skill of WP - means, he trying to hide truth.

He also said about Devour essence. Yeah, sure, run AOE attack around yourself to ruin your AOE-detaunt - what a fantastic idea?

peterpan, you can record a video to all of us with differences between WP and Dok

[ThePollie]

Like I said, grain of salt . But in this case, using your numbers, it would be an AP-free 112 health every three seconds to your defensive target, not just you. You have to contrast that with a ~62% chance (20% chance for 5 groupmates) of a 272 heal to yourself every second. The final numbers are (on average) 168 hp for you every second, or 112 health every 3 seconds to our defensive target. That seems like a more fair trade-off to me, but maybe the numbers still don't make it worth it. That's fine too, just throwing some ideas out.

Grain of salt, indeed. It's nice to see people making a suggestion, but not acting like they not playing the class is irrelevant.

As for AP free? Well, yes. But so is Leading the Prayer. Parry and block shuts down the lifetap, being out of range does too. Leading the Prayer works even if I'm disabled, punted out of range, and rooted for 20 seconds. And it costs me nothing but a tactic slot, no AP or RF. As for ~62%, it's better honestly. A player can average 2-3 attacks per second, depending on weapons and abilities used. With five people attacking constantly, I can expect 12-15 chances to proc the effect, in just a few seconds. A knight autoattacks, chance to proc. He lands a hit with a snare, chance to proc, etc.

Plus, with a bit of RNG luck, you could have them constantly applying it. But that's why I don't like using Leading the Prayer, the RNG means you could have it proc very little and effectively waste the tactic slot. But when it does work, it provides you with enough healing that you can better focus on healing others. So I suppose the lifetap would be more reliable, but Leading the Prayer has more potential healing.

My problem is, like stated before, we can have a lot of trouble sticking to a target. Which is why I like Sigmar's Shield. Once I've activated it, it'll heal even if I get lagged before and can't get to a target.

[bloodi]

I already proposed giving them arcing power but that would only work on abilities, its an already existing tactic that its just worthless on AM, WPs and Doks would make much better use of it.

If its just autoattacks, is a lot worse, white damage is not something Wps are good at, doks are a bit better but still.

[Genisaurus]

I already proposed giving them arcing power but that would only work on abilities, its an already existing tactic that its just worthless on AM, WPs and Doks would make much better use of it.

If its just autoattacks, is a lot worse, white damage is not something Wps are good at, doks are a bit better but still.

Yeah, I admit my idea was pretty lackluster in hindsight - even a boost to 100% AA isn't worth it. Arcing power would work much better, especially as an 11-point tactic, and fits the theme of the Grace tree.

[ThePollie]

I already proposed giving them arcing power but that would only work on abilities, its an already existing tactic that its just worthless on AM, WPs and Doks would make much better use of it.

If its just autoattacks, is a lot worse, white damage is not something Wps are good at, doks are a bit better but still.

Yeah, I admit my idea was pretty lackluster in hindsight - even a boost to 100% AA isn't worth it. Arcing power would work much better, especially as an 11-point tactic, and fits the theme of the Grace tree.

Arcing Power would actually be fairly solid, for Grace, as long as it worked with melee abilities. Aside from Judgement and maybe Smite, we're lacking for 'Spells'. I'm mildly concerned how it might affect Divine Assault, which already lifetaps for 350% of damage dealt.

As for autoattack lifetaps? Just needs a touch of work. 100% lifetap would give me an average of 240-300 health a swing. Allowing it to also affect the priest and the defensive target, instead of just either one, would allow more viability. Leading the Prayer would still trump it for survivability, but the lifetap would allow better support of allies.

[SilverWF]

Arcing Power would actually be fairly solid, for Grace. I'm mildly concerned how it might affect Divine Assault, which already lifetaps for 350% of damage dealt.

As for autoattack lifetaps? Just needs a touch of work. 100% lifetap would give me an average of 240-300 health a swing. Allowing it to also affect the priest and the defensive target, instead of just either one, would allow more viability. Leading the Prayer would still trump it for survivability, but the lifetap would allow better support of allies.

Why just do not give WP a "GodMode" button?
AOE detaunt is semi-godmode. Too bad - someone still dieing in RVR

That guy don't seems to be weak
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f504LISxMs

God, that AA damage - 100th Dok can only dream about it!

[Ade]

Why just do not give WP a "GodMode" button?
AOE detaunt is semi-godmode. Too bad - someone still dieing in RVR

That guy don't seems to be weak
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f504LISxMs

God, that AA damage - 100th Dok can only dream about it!

A showcase of a geared melee WP fighting in 1v1 and 1v2, a place where the class shines and is powerful..... yes clearly it is godmode.