Return of Reckoning

Yes, this is a whine post. User has been warned for this - Penril.

Why are people not playing with BOs to increase that cd further to 15secs? It seems - as usual - people are arguing from a solo perspective. Even if a WL pounces you, you should not be dying without an inc hd and if you have good tanks and heals.

10 sec cd is more than enough for a class completely reliant on burst dps and mobility. There are so many ways to counter a WL it's not even funny.

Bozzax wrote:Pounce currently is more effective then Charge (as a gap closer)

- Quicker, less reaction time vs can be pre kited as there is travel time
- Ignores terrain vs must adhere to terrain
- Does damage vs no damage
- 30AP vs 0AP
- 10s CD vs 30s CD
- Needs a target vs free movement

All counter plays you can "conjure up" are the same you'd use vs Charge and RD/FD amplifies the efficiency of charge/pounce exactly the same way. That is why a self speed buff > snare

overnerf an already nerfed class

You mean the tougher pet?
Or the pounce-miss-fire fix?
The change to pounce itself which we are discussing?

Sinced Punce now is more efficient then charge and is added on top of having charge I'd prefer a 15-30s CD ye. Happiness has little to do with it.

A CD of 30 secs on pounce means to destroy the whole purpose of the class, which is already lacking a inc heal debuff. The only good thing it provides is fast mobile burst, that's it. I'm amazed that u can't figure it out yourself.

We'll when it comes to me personally I'd much rather have seen pounce left as it was, "less reliable" and "less efficient" with "less CD".

But here we are ... and now pounce is more effective then Charge (30s CD) and extremely reliable especially together with RD/FG that amplify the effectiveness of self speed procs. In that setting a 10s CD is low.

Regarding OP I think the initial assessment of the skill was incorrect and it is very unfortunate "pounce" was selected for balancing the class, making WLs even more of a 1-trick pony.

Sadly a super efficient pounce will for forceable future likely block most improvements to the WL.

But that is my .2$ and maybe we will se pounce changed back to 0-5s CD, who knows.

Bozzax wrote:

3-prolonged spam remove tooo many ap

Would be nice if we could leave AP cost of pounce out of all future discussion. (Pounce never missfires in RoR)

Spoiler:

So if you make it perfect "lands every time" which seems extremely excessive to me since

• - other gap closers, Fetch and TE for example have a high failure rate
  - you can already combine it with WLs other abilities for a higher success rate
  - in team play you can piggyback team mates CC for a much higher success rate
  - would more or less guarantee the WLs burst (best in the game) to land properly on every pounce

If you decide to increase the effectiveness of pounce and giving it a CD these are the abilities you really should look at for finding the appropriate CD.

• - Ranged snares SH or SW for example vary from 15-20s
  - Abilities that lets you ignore snare (Root, snare breaks, M2s) 60s CD
  - Abilities that "close the gap (TE, Fetch, Magnet, Rift, Choppa pull 30s CD
  - Abilities that "increase movement speed" (flee, Charge) 30s CD
  - (Renown) abilities that gives you immunity to KBs (RD) 120s CD

Being the only ranged attack on a melee class with snare, "speed proc", gap closing and a superb escape tool I would not expect 10s.

What you would loose/gimp at the same time

• - mixed group synergy
  - the best assist team tool in game on any melee, in fact the only one really
  - your get out of jail card with a very high success rate
  - kb "immunity"
  - Combo moves (pounce-fetch-pounce) separating guard and guardee
  - snare "immunity"

Also while at it lets debunk the myths Proper use of pounce don't
- put you at risk pouncing out of guard range

rather than how the skill is beneficial i have to point that it can be used for reach ppl out of pounce range, so pounce to someone and just run straight to another target.

maybe even kd 1 target with the pet and run straight to another one.

My implementation feedback.

Issues:

- Pounce is still not 100% landing, the 3 sec speed boost isnt always quite enough and as a skill can end the burst its quite easy for a auto attack to land before you have had a chance to land the snare.

- Additionally, pounces intention (seemingly) is to allow wl's to hit backlines it big warfare situations, given you need to burn elven grace to allow for an escape, I think pounce should also initiate some cc immunity. This would allow for an in/out attack in a perfect setup, in large scale warfare (finally giving the wl more of a role).

- The pet does not jump with the player, circa 25% of my damage should not be turning up 5 seconds later on a burst reliant class.

Suggested changes:

- Pounce speed increase upped to 5 sec, which includes cc immunity. Skill usage doesnt end the effect (to prevent the auto attack issue)

- Cool down increased to 20 seconds (want it used as an one off opener, not as a way to avoid cc, requires a target to pounce to anyway).

- The pet should jump/move/teleport also with the player during pounce.

Today I noticed white lions are pouncing while airborne. I have checked the career guide and it states pounce can't be used while airborne, rooted or stunned. This needs to be addressed. As I said before not against them having it but their needs to be a risk and reward factor in the sense that when used well it's devastating allowing players to ambush as if from nowhere using the terrain to conceal their movement. But, when used carelessly results in a swim in lava or the white lion in a compromising position because they haven't had the inclination to think first.

Auto attacks are not a skill and do not break Pounce's charge component...

Faef wrote:My implementation feedback.

Issues:

- Pounce is still not 100% landing, the 3 sec speed boost isnt always quite enough and as a skill can end the burst its quite easy for a auto attack to land before you have had a chance to land the snare.

- Additionally, pounces intention (seemingly) is to allow wl's to hit backlines it big warfare situations, given you need to burn elven grace to allow for an escape, I think pounce should also initiate some cc immunity. This would allow for an in/out attack in a perfect setup, in large scale warfare (finally giving the wl more of a role).

- The pet does not jump with the player, circa 25% of my damage should not be turning up 5 seconds later on a burst reliant class.

Suggested changes:

- Pounce speed increase upped to 5 sec, which includes cc immunity. Skill usage doesnt end the effect (to prevent the auto attack issue)

- Cool down increased to 20 seconds (want it used as an one off opener, not as a way to avoid cc, requires a target to pounce to anyway).

- The pet should jump/move/teleport also with the player during pounce.

I strongly disagree with your suggested changes. What you're wanting to do is make pounce an unstoppable gap closer that has no counterplay. You're essentially wanting pounce to be charge(30s) and feline grace(1min) combined, with a lower cooldown (20s), on hit damage, and improved gap closing ability. On top of that, skill usage not ending the effect would make it the ultimate skill, effectively making charge and feline grace null and void, and outshining all gap closing abilities in the game. Like you said, it is a burst class, and having such an ability would make pounce pretty much guarantee a kill.
Although I do agree that the pet should pounce as well.

Iceman5545 wrote:

Faef wrote:My implementation feedback.

Issues:

- Pounce is still not 100% landing, the 3 sec speed boost isnt always quite enough and as a skill can end the burst its quite easy for a auto attack to land before you have had a chance to land the snare.

- Additionally, pounces intention (seemingly) is to allow wl's to hit backlines it big warfare situations, given you need to burn elven grace to allow for an escape, I think pounce should also initiate some cc immunity. This would allow for an in/out attack in a perfect setup, in large scale warfare (finally giving the wl more of a role).

- The pet does not jump with the player, circa 25% of my damage should not be turning up 5 seconds later on a burst reliant class.

Suggested changes:

- Pounce speed increase upped to 5 sec, which includes cc immunity. Skill usage doesnt end the effect (to prevent the auto attack issue)

- Cool down increased to 20 seconds (want it used as an one off opener, not as a way to avoid cc, requires a target to pounce to anyway).

- The pet should jump/move/teleport also with the player during pounce.

I strongly disagree with your suggested changes. What you're wanting to do is make pounce an unstoppable gap closer that has no counterplay. You're essentially wanting pounce to be charge(30s) and feline grace(1min) combined, with a lower cooldown (20s), on hit damage, and improved gap closing ability. On top of that, skill usage not ending the effect would make it the ultimate skill, effectively making charge and feline grace null and void, and outshining all gap closing abilities in the game. Like you said, it is a burst class, and having such an ability would make pounce pretty much guarantee a kill.
Although I do agree that the pet should pounce as well.

No im talking about pouncing into the backline of a wb, your talking about a 1v1 gap closer which isnt relevant. In a perfect setup, if you agree the above should be their role, they need a way to get on a target without being cc'd and get out again with some protection (feline grace does not protect from all). Im open to alternatives, adjusting above values, my suggestion is what I thought would work, 5 seconds is not going to be enough to kill someone, feline grace would be popped to exit out of the mass mob that would jump you, but its not perfect, you can still be knocked down etc, think your exaggerating the effectiveness a bit here.