[Suggestion] Making guard less OP

[roadkillrobin]

the thing is that guard is pretty tightly connected with healing. And changing the gurad mechanic means changing the healing meta

My view is that it would be good if guard doesnt reduce damage but transfer raw stats from the tank to the guarded person. That way the tank wont take extra dmg \although it will be abit squshier\ and the dps will be tougher cos of the extra stats. Most important is that this will promote much more ST healing instead of gheal. But that wont happened so shrug....

It wouldn't change anything for healing. Tanks would still take dmg from AoE and if they ere squishier tons more. Meaning healer would still need to groupheal. And stats, reallly lol....stats are the worst dmg mitigration in the game. This would make tanks completly useless we allready providing stats the our groups in one way or another. And the difference they make is maybe 1-2% dmg mitigration. Even if you would tranfer 100% of our defensive stats into our guarded target they would maybe get 10-15% dmg mitigration at moast.

[Tesq]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Just as a few examples i'll start with chosen: Supress 25% Parry + Mixed defenses

Supress can be parried and has nowhere near 100% uptime. Mixed defenses wasn't skilled until now, we'll see if that changes-

Kotbs: X% through Runefang, Shield Rush 10% block+"15% Parry" (??)

Slotting runefang as a KotBS?

SM: Potential double parry tactic, 10% block/parry through stance tactic, 5% through 2h tactic, 25% eagles flight.

Double parry tactic is level 37 and really bad for guarddamage. 10% block parry is only 10% in the final stance. 5% 2h tactic means we are talking about a 2H tank, so guarddamage is certainly not negligible for him.

The idea that Chosen and Knight are the perfect deftards isn't new and I am not saying that their damage mitigation is superior to the others, but I still don't agree with nerfing guard based on T3

Of those, kiting squads are the only niche I'd recognize based on a view towards either 6v6/12v12 SC play or mass RvR

12v12 SC means pugs vs pugs? Hybrids really shine there, especially AMs. Mass RvR is a similar case, unless we talk about organized mass rvr. Just to clarify, those seem to be the major things people do on this server, solo SC and zerging.

IB and BG: Oathbound 25% for 2 targets, Oathstone / Elite Training , 3-30% Parry on hatred, Shield Mastery 10% block 5% reduced dmg...

I just state it again. Later on with set bonis and reactionary proccs as well. Even as 2h tanks, the guard damage can be negated very well.

I say it again for the others too: Guard should not be changed in regard of the one that is being guarded, but in regards of what the guarding >Tank< receives from it. The >Tank< should not be so ridiculously tanky while having someone guarded. If the guard values or whatever get changed i agree that every DPS is going to be blown up, but that is something i explicitly said now again that i dont seek.

Having someone guarded in a decent group has literally NO drawback for a tank and THIS is the issue i have.

there are no drawback cos there are alredy:

morals + tank self damage in aoe + magic damages being hardly to self defense while not using hold the line.

The aim is always wipe the opponents, if your aim for healer and it's too easy then the game is boring, tank must be tanky or the game is boring so obviusly all the attention goes on damage dealer which if they melt they are boring...

this dog that bit his tail is all balanced in guard+ resistences aura.

Especially in wb fight it's best bomb /aoe directly on healer but it's not so easy and so you bomb on tanks /dd to keep pressure which get every damage onto them self---> the same need to apply when moral push.
They still need to die last or they are not tank.. so you make guard do almost pure damage to your tank and encourage tank to stack defensive stats rather/only than armor/resistences so that they can survive even a moral push.

This def stack is a lot expensive and not cost efficent as for how much is easier for DD currently in game due to renown 1.4.0 changes.
It's true you can have higer defense due to the new renown system but the damage curve totaly fly out of the graphic with the new renown system.

you can have a comparison here http://warhammer.gamepressure.com/war_r ... lities.asp
Also the old renown system had racial tactic which helped to balance the meta, and single resistence increase from renown and armor for other healers/tank that have heavy weakness.
It then forced you to build in certain way and spent only x point in stuff like crit etc or had to divide points on them.

[Jaycub]

Just because guard is a core part of the game mechanics and a main driver of the metagame doesn't mean it can't be flawed / untouchable in terms of balance changes.

I think the biggest obstacle is for the most part this game is played fundamentally different in ORvR and SC's, and going further 6 mans with GOOD voice communication are playing the game on a pretty much different plane of existence. Changes to things like guard will effect each group differently, and is why in this thread that isn't even a day old with 20+ pages has so many different opinions.

The best change would be one that promoted skillful / counter play in scenario type situations that even groups with no voice comms could pull off, but also doesn't effect survivability in massive fights that we see in ORvR whether it be in a PUG WB or a full alliance premade WB etc...


Changing how tanks are able to mitigate guard damage could very well mean the end for 2h tanks, unless they were given something major to compensate. Changing the % value could ruin ORvR balance in large scale fights and make playing DPS unbearable in the AoE spam. Etc...

[Cornerback]

Why would anyone want to nerf guard? And why is this thread still open? Ò.ó

There are already pretty strong counters like "learn to assist" and "learn to call the right targets".

Nerfing guard would reduce the time to kill for melee trains from like 5 seconds to like 2 seconds?
Guard is the only tool in this game to counter the ridiculously high dps of many dps classes.

Sounds pretty good if you ask me. /ironyoff

But seriously... this game has many flaws, but guard has never been one of them since this game was released.

[mursie]

I think there are definitely some ranged classes worthy of being "reigned" in.

[PartizanRUS]

So the person making the original post asserts that Guard is OP but understands the mechanic so poorly that he thinks it stacks, and now people are suggesting all manner of ways to nerf a core skill of a tank?

The fact that the OP is wrong doesnt change the point of guard being obviously horribly strong.

This must be a stupid joke. Guard is a core game mechanic and upon its foundation based whole tank class gameplay. Every freaking tank class. Its not another skill in the tree.

wb vs wb ... Rly? Having 4-8 DDs potentially focusing on one target is no foundation of any discussion either.

There is no need for any video proof of guard being op, because the numbers (even now a chosen has 20% block and about 70% parry) alone should tell you that it is.

2 dps is what we usually needed to take down targets during premade vs premade styled setting. 3 dps naturally is better but then you sacrifice a tank for that spot.

You miss the point. It is not about making the guardee easier to kill or whatever. I had enough 6v6 fights myself, but the point is that the guarded target dies while the tank pretty much still is at 80% HP+ because he literally can ignore all the guard damage in the first place.

In this game as many others Tanks are actually soaking up damage if you didn't know. Good morning.

[geezereur]

Guard could use a little bit nerf maybe 15%.

[peppex91]

Yeah, nerf guard so glass cannons tanks can't be blamed for not using it... It's hard to find a excuse atm.

What u mean by 15%? U are proposing to make guard act as 35% damage splitter?

[Toldavf]

Spoiler:

Just as a few examples i'll start with chosen: Supress 25% Parry + Mixed defenses

Supress can be parried and has nowhere near 100% uptime. Mixed defenses wasn't skilled until now, we'll see if that changes-

Kotbs: X% through Runefang, Shield Rush 10% block+"15% Parry" (??)

Slotting runefang as a KotBS?

SM: Potential double parry tactic, 10% block/parry through stance tactic, 5% through 2h tactic, 25% eagles flight.

Double parry tactic is level 37 and really bad for guarddamage. 10% block parry is only 10% in the final stance. 5% 2h tactic means we are talking about a 2H tank, so guarddamage is certainly not negligible for him.

The idea that Chosen and Knight are the perfect deftards isn't new and I am not saying that their damage mitigation is superior to the others, but I still don't agree with nerfing guard based on T3

Of those, kiting squads are the only niche I'd recognize based on a view towards either 6v6/12v12 SC play or mass RvR

12v12 SC means pugs vs pugs? Hybrids really shine there, especially AMs. Mass RvR is a similar case, unless we talk about organized mass rvr. Just to clarify, those seem to be the major things people do on this server, solo SC and zerging.

IB and BG: Oathbound 25% for 2 targets, Oathstone / Elite Training , 3-30% Parry on hatred, Shield Mastery 10% block 5% reduced dmg...

I just state it again. Later on with set bonis and reactionary proccs as well. Even as 2h tanks, the guard damage can be negated very well.

I say it again for the others too: Guard should not be changed in regard of the one that is being guarded, but in regards of what the guarding >Tank< receives from it. The >Tank< should not be so ridiculously tanky while having someone guarded. If the guard values or whatever get changed i agree that every DPS is going to be blown up, but that is something i explicitly said now again that i dont seek.

Having someone guarded in a decent group has literally NO drawback for a tank and THIS is the issue i have.

This Is going to constrict the amount of viable specs for a group while forcing the tanky tanks to become even more tanky. Come T4 and a good armour set /renown spec if a tank wants to live 5 minutes after his group dies he will you can spec for that it fine to do. A tank that specs like this is completely pointless in any premade that isn't pure kiting beyond his cc and guard swapping double digit damage isn't even worth using to assist.

On live the best black Orcs used to tread the line of getting the guarding job done while bringing some effective assist dps and not being squishy enough to just explode, it's the same for every tank striking a good balance between offence and defence is key.

The fact is your idea is a bit counter productive you wont to punish the tough tanks they will only react by trying to become tougher.

Guard works fine just the way it is smart use of cc is the effective counter pull, punt, morale roots and good effective training In T4 guarded targets died all the time this is mostly because dps specs are fully realised (you have full dps AND a 50% inc heal debuff) right now we are close to it and with a little dps from one player and the right debuff from another a guarded target will drop.

[Drak]

Annaise’s claim to have levelled a tank to 40/90 without dying from guard damage (page 3 of this thread) was so ridiculous that I gave him some mock applause. But the tone of his comment was a bit annoying:

"And lol at people who say that a defensive tank has to worry about dying from guard damage. Any tank that has a shield or has stacked parry is very unlikely to ever die from guard damage unless they are truly careless AND have no healing. I played my SM to 40/90 in AOR and died from guard damage once."

But then today I realised he was telling the truth, sort of.

Annaise, weren’t you in Richard Warhawk’s guild, the one that farmed empty servers everyone else had left when servers merged? Didn't that guuild spend 3 weeks, twice, taking empty keeps from which Mythic had removed even the NPC defenders?

Enough time wasted my rdps has to be levelled in case guard does get nerfed. OP dps AM ftw!