[Magus, Engineer] Buff like in never released patch 1.4.9

[Azarael]

To be clear: Are we defining ORvR as Xv1 or ZvZ here? Because if we're talking about class potential in 1on1 or Xv1, I'm flying the "who cares?!" flag as high as I possibly can.

[Sulorie]

Magus was fine without deftard spec. All you need is kiting, like every proper rdps.

[Zxul]

To be clear: Are we defining ORvR as Xv1 or ZvZ here? Because if we're talking about class potential in 1on1 or Xv1, I'm flying the "who cares?!" flag as high as I possibly can.

Aza the thing is- not all classes were intended for 6v6.

As such you can't balance all classes about group play- since quite a few of them are solo classes as a concept. You can't fit them into group play, unless you pretty much remake them into group classes- resulting either in a massive nerf to solo play, or in massively overpowered classes- imagine magus with current defenses and a sorc spike for example.

Those of us who like to play solo- and there are lot more soloers then those who play premades- really won't like classes that we are playing being nerfed just cause somebody wants to play a solo class in premades. And nobody wants the second option.

Classes like magus/dps dok/wh ets were always more of, and intended to, to be a solo roaming classes, while classes like sorc/choppa are group classes. If there is any need of rebalancing, it should consider whatever the class is intended as a group class in the first place.

[Azarael]

Do you have any source to back up the assertion that any of the classes in this game, or indeed, any aspect of this game was intended to support 1v1?

[Sulorie]

There are no solo classes, only classes which need a different group setup to work in a group apart from being better at soloing than others.

[Chsuan]

I disagree with this.

If the problem is caused by the ability to stack armor, or excessive armor in general, and therefore only manifests when excessively powerful gear and customisation opportunities enter the game in late T4, deal with that problem rather than trying to change the classes to get around it.

I take the view that if a class fundamentally works in lower tiers and gets broken in T4 not because of newer abilities, but because of much more easily changeable aspects of the late T4 environment, it is T4 that needs to change - not the class.

Sadly, I believe it will be much harder to get support for reducing T4 power inflation than it will be to tweak classes, but at some point this issue has to be faced.

I disagree with this as it pertains to the Engie and Magus. Overall your theory is valid, however, in this specific situation, it is not. Both the Engineer and Magus are absolutely god awful classes, from T1-T4. They is never a point in this game where they can be considered good in comparison to any other RDPS class and even DPS Supports.

I had a RR95 Magus, so armor is not pertinent to the discussion relating to that class, and it was still pathetic as a class. Seeing as the Engineer is even worse, having to deal with armor, and the problem with these classes is not based on power inflation. It is based on a horrible archetype/class design.

Without writing an essay on it, these classes have always dealt with these base problem:

Mediocre damage, mediocre survivability, mediocre (or even bad really) utility, mediocre (or even bad) CC.

They don't do anything particularly well. Outside of let group healers have stupid high numbers in scenarios. As is stands, these classes have no real purpose outside of pullbots.

For everyone stating that their Engineer is fine. I have honestly yet to see a single Engineer who is any sort of real threat at level 26 at the moment. Their damage is a laughable joke compared to SWs and BWs, their CC can't stop anything for long(esp with the super low duration stagger), and they are just about as easy to kill as SWs/BWs and have way worse kiting potential. I'd rather fight Engineers than DPS AMs and RPs. At least DPS AMs have a heal debuff.

Finally somebody said it!
I agree 100% with foof, it's not about tweaking any numbers on the classes since the very basis of the class mechanic is broken. I had a rr 90 magus and rr 90 engineer on live servers and to say that engineers right now in t2 are completely fine is just a blatant lie, (and to think they get worse in t4.) Never felt threatened by an engineer here, always thinking about free food as soon as i spot one.

For me almost all the problems facing the engineer and magus can be traced back to the god awful pets that they have to deal with. a two second cast with the cost of 55 ap, whilst standing still to summon a pet that is 100% neccesary to be up at all times to even do close decent damage is not acceptable. Magus and engineers has the SAME ap cost and cast time as SH has with their pets, only differance is the SH does not need to resummon their pet everytime the fight moves 20 feet forwards and drain their entire ap pool (don't get me started on the bugged range on turrets and deamons, only 65 feet here was 100 feet on live.) The magus/engi pets gives mobility problems, ap problems and dmg problems, combined with low range on many abilties and being the ONLY rdps in the game without a ranged slow of some kind. They also don't have any kind of healing reducement that BW/SH/SW have.

Also armor pots don't stack with armor buff that magus/engineer can buff themself with so thats another stealth nerf towards them.

[Zxul]

You only need to look at class abilities to know what the classes were intended for, and which ones are group and which ones are solo.

Group play was always about tank/healer/dps. If the class you are looking at has a strong set of tools for one of those roles, but has little or no tools for the other two, its a group class. If, from other hand, class while fits one of the above roles his tools for the role are average, but from other hand he has a secondary tools that fit the other two roles, it is a solo class.

See sorc for example- high single target/aoe dps, but no real self healing, and no tanking ability to speak of- a group class. See choppa- pretty much the same.

From other hand see magus- dmg takes much longer to build up then on sorc, and aoe which isn't really comparable to sorc- but from other hand armor buff/toughness tactic- tank role, and 2 types of self heals/absorb tactic- heal role.

Basically, if the class has tools to perform as tank, healer, and dps, all by itself, it is a solo class.

Then you have classes like WH or dps sham- with set of tools (stealth/kiting tools) which really don't fit the group play.

Or see dps dok- dmg isn't going to be comparable to choppa, but from other hand dps dok gets armor cov (and parry mods with dual wield/tactic if you like that spec), and self heals. Though dps dok is probably the most hybrid class out there, with tools for healing, tanking, mdps, and rdps (with single target spammable nuke/30 f pbaoe/50 f cone nuke/version of channeled aoe).

[Coryphaus]

armor buff + tough tactic = tank

lol k

[Zxul]

armor buff + tough tactic = tank

lol k

3.9 k armor/800 toughness/ orange resists/ full TB= tank

[Coryphaus]

armor buff + tough tactic = tank

lol k

3.9 k armor/800 toughness/ orange resists/ full TB= tank

thats not what it means to be a tank