Return of Reckoning

If we are to take a look at the last frontpage cityinstances and just blindly looking at sorc/BW performance in all gear and RR ranges here are the links:

Two RR 70 BWs, two RR 65 sorcs
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... ef297f818b

RR 45 bw
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 07f80e6607

RR 80 bw
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 538a05de1d

RR 80, rr 40 BW. RR 80 sorc:
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 12e3626328

RR 80, RR 40 BW. RR 60 sorc
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 5caf2163e0

No BW. RR 78 sorc RR 80 sorc
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 71822f4573

RR 75bw RR 65 sorc
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 7e4e321c70

The one instance where I suspect this sudden interest in BW/Sorc is coming from is from an instance that luckily got streamed so we can see more of the "why" there was such a big difference in damage. But when we look closer we can see more of the real picture and not just blindly look at stats and overreact:

Scoreboard and link to skirmish report:
RR 80 bws, rr 70 sorc
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... ea61f77efb
Streamlink: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2226853807

Timestamps
20:19 leftover talk about being outdamaged by a BW in LOTD where Morale damage from Explosive Force ALWAYS brings BW ahead.
20:34 slayer singletarget/aoe builds kill 2 zealot, 2 shammies while destro focuses to kill the two BWs behind the pillar,
order meleedps kills destro's healers out in the open

31:27 order 4 groups fight destro 3 groups
31: 38 can see slayers moving around finihsing destro healers off one by one where as BWs are doing aoe criticalmass to pressure the groups with lower healing while the focusfire happends
Order aoe damagedealers get 5kills on destro tanks/healers while they have one group advantage in the fight and the slayer melee train is killing a zealot for pressure on the frontline.

32:55 next fight starts without destro having everyone there. several tanks/healers missing. Frontal fight and BWs already have morales from beating on the lord coming into destro M3 No escape + M2 drop kills
35:29 lion is mara pulled and killed before teh fight and will lose alot of damage uptime from this fight(lion plays with pet and not with +25%loner tactic for maximum aoe)

The rest of the instance was just a farm, slayers at times moved to the side to deal with a healer or Ranged SH but alos added some aoe pressure.

So my conclusion when I look around for data is that we need to stop blindly trusting just skirmish reports and instead look at the bigger picture.
These slayers added so much pressure in both killing/pressuring destro backline allowing the aoe spam from BWs on the frontline to be meaningful. This is the classic compostion of a 3aoe group 1st group. But in this case done with slayers who can help and add more aoe damage criticalmass to create kills both on ST and aoe. The BWs will always drive into the bigger stack to apply the aoe pressure where as several times in this instance are the slayers going off and adding healer pressure, allowing the BW aoe dmg to go from fluff to pressure to leathal. This is not a new concept, it was used for the many first months and years of City sieges so why are we suddenly blindly reacting to only scoreboard numbers, confusing Land of the Dead morale advantages vs none morale classes, and when we compare bigger than just one instance, we see that those two BWs outdamageing others might actually have been player diffrence and mainly outdamaged so drastically as the WL was running pet aoe build, slayers were doing backline singletarget pressure.

Hopefully this whole post was not needed, as we are not blindly balancing the game out of scoreboards only and we actually look at the real game and see the full picture, right? Hopefully because theres a Dev inside that instance and a very vocal voice constantly mentioning "brightwizard, brightwizard, brightwizard" we are not getting nerfs based on that two days later. I HAVE to belive that is not the server we play on!

wonshot wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2024 2:52 pm Hopefully because theres a Dev inside that instance and a very vocal voice constantly mentioning "brightwizard, brightwizard, brightwizard" we are not getting nerfs based on that two days later. I HAVE to belive that is not the server we play on!

But then again, would anyone be surprised by that?

Caduceus wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2024 3:32 pm

wonshot wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2024 2:52 pm Hopefully because theres a Dev inside that instance and a very vocal voice constantly mentioning "brightwizard, brightwizard, brightwizard" we are not getting nerfs based on that two days later. I HAVE to belive that is not the server we play on!

But then again, would anyone be surprised by that?

I am not surprised

Please keep the topic about the intented class mechanic proposed changes on PTS

Paxsanarion wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2024 4:31 pm

Caduceus wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2024 3:32 pm

wonshot wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2024 2:52 pm Hopefully because theres a Dev inside that instance and a very vocal voice constantly mentioning "brightwizard, brightwizard, brightwizard" we are not getting nerfs based on that two days later. I HAVE to belive that is not the server we play on!

But then again, would anyone be surprised by that?

I am not surprised

Honestly more surprised whenever there's a logical, non-kneejerk change based on something other than anecdotal regurgitation from certain cliques.

I would not reduce the dmg bw/sorc but instead I would fix TB as it was on the live server. I would increase the critical dmg reduction from 40% to 50% and the issue would be fixed.

Probably an unpopular take, but this should have been done years ago instead of trying to make all rdps on par with bw and sorcs. Free crit and crit damage just for playing a particular class has always been overpowered.

I think as an alternative, making sorcs/bws take a stacking wounds debuff (up to a cap) or something like that instead of just flat damage would be a huge improvement. The risk/reward from dark magic and combustion is basically just all reward if you have either a pink pot or a HoT so its essentially just free crit and crit damage.

wonshot wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2024 2:52 pm If we are to take a look at the last frontpage cityinstances and just blindly looking at sorc/BW performance in all gear and RR ranges here are the links:

Two RR 70 BWs, two RR 65 sorcs
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... ef297f818b

RR 45 bw
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 07f80e6607

RR 80 bw
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 538a05de1d

RR 80, rr 40 BW. RR 80 sorc:
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 12e3626328

RR 80, RR 40 BW. RR 60 sorc
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 5caf2163e0

No BW. RR 78 sorc RR 80 sorc
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 71822f4573

RR 75bw RR 65 sorc
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 7e4e321c70

The one instance where I suspect this sudden interest in BW/Sorc is coming from is from an instance that luckily got streamed so we can see more of the "why" there was such a big difference in damage. But when we look closer we can see more of the real picture and not just blindly look at stats and overreact:

Scoreboard and link to skirmish report:
RR 80 bws, rr 70 sorc
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... ea61f77efb
Streamlink: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2226853807

No offense but this just seems like very conveniently selected anecdotal evidence that happens to support your argument. There are probably plenty of city instances other than this where bws and sorcs have dominated in damage and death blows. Show some of your own instances as an example

Alubert wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2024 6:58 pm I would not reduce the dmg bw/sorc but instead I would fix TB as it was on the live server. I would increase the critical dmg reduction from 40% to 50% and the issue would be fixed.

That is an interesting point. Even when Trivial blow RA was stronger on Live, the class mechanic stayed the same.
When RR 90 and RR100 powercreep was in AoR the class mechanic stayed the same.

On RoR a lesser version of Trival blows was added, now if we are seeing both a version of TB + nerf to class mechanic, then what are the build alternatives to Timestamp for dealing singletarget damage. Where is the Fireball-spam-build for consistant damage, where is the build for channeling damage while standing still and the damage will ramp up as you stand for longer time. There are no alternatives, as much as I dislike the Timestamp exactly because it is too much All-or-nothing.

Again, the timing of this change is baffling to me. Because we dont see what changes might come or not come in the Damagedealing roadmap or the niece spec roadmap. Can we assume that these casters are getting a more consistant ranged singletarget build to give alternative to Timestamping or critrelated builds?
Will Closequaters tactic become good for pvp closerange aoe builds?
Will sorc and bw in their aoe builds get a real filler ability instead of spamming a Dot + career dump. Atleast we are somewhat playing our class mechanic, not like rage mechanic melees who try to stay perma red.

Changing the blanket career mechanic now, without any insight in what will happend to the builds and both careers just seem like a scapegoat.
I just talked to the guild and one of the guys in the double BW doubling dmg of the slayer warband instance, and they confirmed with me they often went out and did singletarget pressure maybe half of the time. So if BWs stayed in the center and dealt constant uptime aoe pressure natrually they would get ahead on damagedone, yet I would argue that the slayers carried the pressure to make the damage go from fluf to leathal.

So lets look at solutions.
If the BW has too much control in its singletarget build in contrast to singletarget sorc, adress that seperately.
If the Sorc has too much singletarget pressure over BW because of all abilities in the timestamp is same resist type, adress that seperately.
If aoe brightwizard has too much damage from Explosive Force morale damage in Land of the Dead, adress that seperately
If the procs are still an issue, then please please please just go back to the 2018 solution and give internal cooldowns and fix all the broken rebuffing/not refreshing/stacking/overlapping issues with Flames of Rhuin, its been a mess since ability rework and still have to rebuff and remove manually.
If Flamebreath dot + aoe filler is overperforming then give a real aoe filler ability for the aoe rotation
If Icespikes is not on pair with Flamebreath, then put it into the Right tree so it also scales with mastery from the aoe build instead of mid tree.
If timestamping is too hard to balance because its all-or-nothing then give an alternative singletarget build

What us mages cant do if this goes live.
We cant make up for the lost critdamage in any gear or RR options. We are already fully offensive max point critchance and softcapped int
We cant trade defensive points into further offensive tools as there are none, no spellpenetraion, strikethrough(WS?) to go full glasscanon
We cant slot more offensive talismans, as we already are.

In many of the cases where casters are looking like they outperform, it is in many cases because of player difference. And the usual tools and methods to shutting them down, is not being done. BW and sorc are generally looked at as easy to kill amongst the top players on the server. In some situations these easy to kill classes are not getting punishes, but are we going to balance the game around that? People have been able to murder me plenty of times in Cityinstances in 2020 when the class was the same, the same reason top players dont want to bring this class into their city, orvr and whatnot. Because the classes are rather easy to shutdown in organized vs organized on same playerskillevel.

We are careers with low mobility, low sustain, low mitigation, semi low control, all we bring is damage and party damage. If you take the damage away, then at a certain point what is the point of bringing a cloth caster who only brings damage when you can bring a bit lower damage output but so much more well rounded careers that bring stronger sustain, mobility, mitigation, control and almost on pair damage all at once. Why should I play my BW if my MSH does it almost as good but does so much more?

Getstats comparison on my BIS MSH with Armor potion + 4p proc and no sentinel talisman vs my BW with Armor potion + 4p proce + sentineltalisman + eventslot
https://imgur.com/a/Yoxlxwx

germ32 wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2024 9:40 pm No offense but this just seems like very conveniently selected anecdotal evidence that happens to support your argument. There are probably plenty of city instances other than this where bws and sorcs have dominated in damage and death blows

None taken.
I just clicked on the frontpage of recent cities.
I did probably close to 70 city instances when they released, the gear and the classes didnt really change since then. and my point being, a class that only brings damage, should outdamage the damagedealers who are bringing more control, utility and have more well rounded tools. Othervice we would only play Mara and WL right.

The point is, nothing has changed on these classes to justify a blanket nerf. if something is overperforming in either of the builds, then adjust that. Dont do blanket nerfs, especially not when nothing has changed and people are not even talking about the classes as in a powerful position.

IF the fear is that BW will become too powerful with elemental debuff, well then dont add the elemental debuff. and why is sorc getting punished lol