Patch Update 23/10/2024
ate 23/10/2024Before I start on the feedback on the latest balance changes, I want to give a quick update on my thoughts on my previous feedback regarding Chop Fasta. So with a huge slice of humble pie, I’d like to say….I’ve grown to quite like Chop Fasta. Although in testing we concluded that it only gives 1 additional auto attack every 10 seconds, in a real-world scenario it doesn’t work quite the same, and can provide additional auto-attacks that otherwise wouldn’t have triggered. This can result in more than 1 hit getting through that otherwise wouldn’t have, giving a good increase in damage pressure. However, the opposite is also true with no additional attacks triggering and the ability doing nothing beyond its base damage.
For other feedback on Chop Fasta, I don’t notice the ‘phantom swing’ attack animation anymore, although that doesn’t make it good design. Even though the ‘crit from behind’ part of the ability goes against the archetype of a tank (in terms of role rather than gameplay), it is fun to use.
Is Chop Fasta a 13pt ability? No, not really. It can add some decent damage pressure, but equally has the chance of doing nothing depending on the fight.
Is it the equal of Sapping Strike? Not even close. That ability is useful in every situation and can put out crazy damage.
Is it a good addition to our toolkit? Yes, I’m glad we’ve got it and would miss it if it were removed. I’m happy to say my opinion has changed since my initial feedback. Even though it still has its problems, it is a very strong ability in certain circumstances.
Chop Fasta feels like it should be a 5pt ability rather than 13pt, so either needs to be moved to 5pt, or given a buff to remain at 13pt. The problem with it at 13pts is that the 2h BO does so little, that the few things it does need to be exceptional to make up for losing so much of our toolkit going 2h over SnB. Otherwise going SnB is always the best choice in all content outside of PvE and solo.
ReturnOfReckoning wrote: Wed Oct 23, 2024 8:25 am
Balance Changes
- Tuffer N Nails - Moved to Path of Da Boss and reworked to: Blessing. 30AP. 5 ft range. Instant. 10s CD. Needs da’ Gud Plan!. Leads to da’ Best Plan!! (No longer requires shield). - You slam into your enemy, dealing 150+1.5 * DB+1.5 * WD (unchanged) damage and increasing your defensive targets parry by 10% for 20s.
- No Choppin Me - No longer affects Savin Me Hide. Now makes Tuffer N Nails additionally affect all group members within 30 ft of your defensive target.
- Savin Me Hide - Moved to Path of Da Toughest. Now requires shield. Best Plan. No AP cost. Deals 75+0.86 * DB+1.5 * WD damage to all targets within 25 ft and increases your Toughness by 120 for 20 seconds. Group members within 100 feet will take only 80% incoming magic damage for the next 5 seconds.
The rework of Tuffer ‘n Nails gives Destruction access to a 10% parry buff, increasing the parry capabilities of MDPS who lost a significant amount of parry with the changes to Weapon Skill and Initiative. Savin Me Hide is changed to become easier to use reactivity in situations against ranged DPS with no longer requiring a nearby target to provide the buff to your group. A shield requirement is added, as we feel like Shield tanks should be the counter versus ranged damage.
Savin Me Hide
I really like this change. We require an ability that doesn’t require a target in each stage of the plan system to be able to navigate it without getting stuck in a particular plan. This meant that Waaagh! was almost mandatory for most builds, but was only really available when getting sov for the +2 mastery bonus. The change to this ability allows us to have a core ability in da best plan that requires no target. This gives us more build variety and makes pre-sov BOs more viable. The change to requiring no target allows us to more easily keep up the toughness buff, which is a nice boost to our survivability, and makes the 4sec 20% magic damage reduction spammable, making it far more useful as a core part of the ability rather than an afterthought.
Of course, as always, the 2h BO suffers from this change. Losing yet another tool and our only spammable single target best plan ability besides Skullthumpa. Yet another nail in the coffin of the 2h BO with even more of our toolkit tied to SnB, even less survivability, so even less reason to ever bring a 2h. At this point though 2h does so little compared to SnB that losing one more ability isn’t going to make a huge difference. He’s already dead.
No Choppin Me
Better than it was for sure, but still not great and suffers from the same problem as the last version with it only being worth taking with a very particular group setup, that being BO+BG, x2 phys melee dps (that don’t have ws buff from ability/gear proc), 1 or 2 SnB DoKs. It also suffers from the fact that the BO has no control over who gets the ability buffs, as it affects group mates within 30ft of the defensive target, not the player, so the only time it would be useful is in a melee ball where everyone is focussing a single target, as that’s the only situation where most of the group will be around the defensive target to gain a benefit from the buffs.
I know you want to try and keep this as a buff to Follow ‘me Lead to be closer to live, but this tactic would be better reworked to provide a buff to Waaagh!. Waaagh! is iconic to Orcs and Warhammer in general and an ability with that name should bring be something special, and at the moment it’s a bit lackluster. Personally, I’d like to see Waaagh! reworked to lose the damage+corp debuff and make the AA damage boost 20sec with 10sec cooldown to fit better with the mechanic. The corp resist debuff would be given to IB to give BoG a boost over Waaagh! to balance it requiring a class resource. With that in place a new tactic that works with Waaagh! would work well together and provide more build options for the BO.
Tuffer N Nails
Amazing change but not quite where it needs to be. The ability was not used at all before this change which has turned it into a great, unique buff. It’s so close to being where it needs to be, but has unfortunately just missed the mark.
As I’ve said in previous feedback, 2h BO was in real need of a parry buff as an ability rather than only with a tactic. Sadly, the ability only works on the defensive target so if we want our own parry ability to provide us a parry buff, we have to switch between us and our defensive target every 10 sec. This is doable, but not really feasible as we have other abilities in Da Gud plan to use and it prevents us using the parry on other members of the party. This isn’t an issue for SnB as we don’t need the additional parry, but once again, is a big hit to the 2h BO with yet another reason not to run it over SnB as with SnB we can use it on both dps rather than one.
I propose that this ability be changed to affect both the BO and the defensive target. When looking at the other tank parry abilities and Sigmar’s Vision, we can see why this would work and would be balanced with them.
Chosen:
20% parry on self for 20sec. 10sec cooldown. Core ability.
SM:
20% parry on self for 10sec. No cooldown (other than the mechanic).Core ability.
IB:
20% parry and 120 ini for IB+DT for 20sec. 10sec cooldown. 5pt mastery ability that requires class resource.
Now lets look at its Order mirror, Sigmar’s Vision on the WP:-
10% parry to defensive target and 10% block on self (with shield) for 15 sec. 5sec cooldown. Builds class resource on hit.
Now lets look at BO:-
10% parry to defensive target for 20sec. 10sec cooldown. Core ability.
As you can see from the other tank abilities , all of them provide 20% parry, or 10% parry+10% block with Sigmar’s Vision. CH and SM have double the parry, but it only applies to themselves, whilst IB provides it to itself and its defensive target (plus ini), but requires mastery points and class resource to use it, so the enhanced utility comes at a price, which is balanced. The BO on the other hand has half the parry of all these abilities, making it the worst ability for providing parry, and has a 10sec cooldown, making it share the downside of both the CH and IB ability, despite it being weaker than both. Sigmar’s Vision mirrors Tuffer N Nails with its 10% parry on defensive target, but has half the cooldown at 5sec, builds class resource, and additionally applies 10% block if the WP has a shield. Granted, the BO ability is easier to apply unless the WP is shield/dps spec and has a longer duration, but with the lower cooldown and extra bonuses Sigmar’s Vision is clearly a superior ability to its mirror.
I feel having the ability work on both the BO and defensive target would be balanced against the other parry abilities in that the 20% parry that all the other abilities provide is, in the case of the BO, split between him and the defensive target. Rather than 20% going to just him, it’s split so BO gets 10%, and the defensive target gets 10%. This also mirrors Sigmar’s Vision, with the BO gaining parry rather than block. Not only would this be balanced (I’d argue that it’s unbalanced against the other parry abilities in it’s current state), but would give a much-needed boost to 2h BO, making the parry tactic less of a must-take, opening up build options, and helping with its new-found squishiness. As mentioned earlier, if the ability is kept as it is, it’s just another reason that taking SnB is a far better choice than 2h. And let’s face it, we’ve got enough of those already.
As the balance team don’t discuss their reasoning for doing or not doing things, It’s not possible to have a dialogue about these changes so we have no idea what their reasons are for not including feedback and can’t offer any counter-points. With that in mind, I’ll include what I think maybe the team’s reasoning below and provide a quick rebuttal. I’m not trying to put words into anyone’s mouths and this is purely guesswork on my part. I mean no offense if I’m way off with what the team are thinking.
“The parry buff only works on the defensive target as BO already has a parry buff with the tactic. Having two stacking parry buffs would be too strong”
If the parry ability were 20% I'd agree, but as the parry buff would be 10%, it synergises with the parry tactic and makes it worth taking. Whereas it's currently a feelsbad having to spend mastery points and a tactic slot on such a lame yet mandatory tactic.
The parry tactic only matches the other classes' parry abilities of 20% when in da best plan, so we have to pay mastery points and a tactic slot (our most powerful and scarce resource) to get the same parry as other classes do as core abilities, but we only get it for a single GCD rather than 10/20sec. With the ability combined with the tactic, we get a reliable 20% parry at the cost of a tactic, plus the extra 5/10% when in Gud/Best plan. This gives us an actual bonus for having to navigate the plan system, (something that is sorely missed for both BO and SM) and isn’t overpowered as the additional parry only lasts for a single GCD whilst we’re in the plan. Considering how much of a power boost IB/BG abilities are given for being part of their mechanic, even more so if they have to spend mastery points, I don’t think it’s too much for us to get the option of having one for ours. I’ve run this combo whilst solo-roaming and it feels just right as it’s really nice to get a bonus for the plan system on something. More abilities/tactics for the BO should work together like this as it makes the mechanic more than just a chore, providing a nice little buff for choosing to pay the cost of mastery points and a tactic. The parry tactic alone emphasizes the downsides of the mechanic and isn’t worth the price paid to get it.
“The BO can already get the parry buff not only on himself, but also for the rest of the group with the No Choppin me tactic”
A level 6 core ability can’t be purposefully neutered to make an 11pt mastery ability worth taking. I’ve already explained the reasons that No Coppin Me is only useful in a very specific circumstance so won’t repeat myself here. It should be pretty obvious why having a level 6 ability dependent on an 11pt mastery isn’t good design.
Overall thoughts
Overall, I’d say these changes have been a positive and it’s nice to see that balance changes are back on track. All the changes are good upgrades to the abilities/tactic from their previous iterations. As with the other patches, 2h BO has gotten worse with the loss of Savin Me Hide, and Tuffer N Nails not providing a self-buff, but at this point it’s so bad compared to SnB that making it worse isn’t going to change anything. Some quick wins have been mentioned in previous posts for the 2h BO, I’m not sure why they haven’t been implemented as they would alleviate a lot of the problems. My only guess is that you’re focusing on SnB at the moment and will look at 2h at a later date. If not, please let Tree Hit Combo no longer require a 2h. I’d prefer 2h be sorted, but if there are no plans to do that at least we’d have a reason to spec into Brawler tree with SnB and it’d open up more build options for us beyond pure defensive tanking. Tanks will always be tanks first and foremost, but it's still fun to spec into damage for smaller-scale fights, and having Tree Hit Combo would allow us to do that without losing most of our primary abilities. Fixing 2h would be better though as krumpin’ gitz with a massive 2h axe is too much fun for it not to be viable.