nocturnalguest wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 7:50 pm
Mastery relocation is straigh up big buff. Im not convinced IB really needs it but we have seen nor roadmap, nor anykind of balance plan, its all shady stuff (like always), a mystery again. PR thingy Hazmy posted clarifies actually absolutely nothing, it has not a single detail. So i believe this discussion without masterplan for everything else is way too moot for all of us to come up with something worthy on this matter and actually i see no valueable feedback to be given at the moment, but it all depends on how exactly rest of things may change.
Grudge gain is very very dangerous topic, BG gains Hate easier but its damage isnt tied with Hate. BGs damage is not pure, dangerous (and it really is dangerous, just look up what Trolar just did in GBF spec) burst that IB can do with proper execution (to do that you need very good GCD management and its not happening so often due to players mistakes and as battle flow demands many things) and its not high sustain adding up really big pressure SM used to have (i dont know how things are with recent patches for SM on a matter), its somewhere in the middle, jack of all trades, master of none. Straigh up buff for Grudge gains has to be mandatory modeled and possible dmg levels it may bring are to be deeply considered and analyzed.
I clearly see only two options we could ask for:
1. Revert BGs WW and IBs BoG back for selfheals and be done with it. Change hasnt been well thought out, its random balance swing not backed up by any data, its absolute disgrace to do balance like that. Accept mistake, bring back AP battery spec for IB and do further investigations if BG even needs anything to be changed for his left tree 13 pointer.
2. Mirror WAAAGH with elemental debuff type to create another synergy for order. I dont know if its actually needed, but its at least something reasonable to test out (justification here could be considering how BW vs Sorcs perform, need lots of data to decide if its needed or not).
For my personal bias and to bring back some flavor of uniqueness i would wish pointless HB adjustment to be reverted either, but its not a matter of balance to be absolutely fair. There were no proper reasons to nerf, there are no proper reasons to revert.
Grudge generation isn't dangerous - you can ride at 100 grudges now, just don't spam your grudge spenders. TBH you could always do this, it was how 2H played before the changes.
The change from grudge gen to GCD and increase in grudge spender cost just means less reason to use spenders and more micro-management of grudge.
It's bad because to play optimally ATM, you have to be extra grudge-greedy - on top of the piano micro. You don't have any agency like the BG does to balance out your spenders. You can't go "I've spent 30 grudge, I will now generate (Enraged Beating)". Ironbreaker doesn't have that control or playangle - you have to sit and wait for your opponent to do something. This is why Rising Anger is so popular and deemed so core - you get grudge for playing your class. The passive income of grudge is a lie - you trade HP for it. You don't get any control over when either. You trade your most valuable resource (HP) at the time and choosing of your opponent.
The issue with grudge gen is heavily at the start of the fight - especially with the slower rate of gain and increased cost of spenders. You should read the suggestion before trying to shoot down any mention of grudge changes; it focuses specifically on the sub 60 grudge, without changing the rate above 60.
As for mastery changes - they are a big thing, but it doesn't automatically make them bad. We already don't have counter-masteries in the same spots in the trees, and that causes significant build challenges in balancing out O v D. My view on moving Earthshatter down is one from the new player experience; it absolutely sucks that the very first mastery you get to spend - all of them are non-damaging buffs. When I was a newby IB, it sucked so much. I ran out of buttons to press, just sitting there hoping people would attack me with Oathbound or Runic Shield, so I could see the effect of these brand new masteries.
From a balance POV, I don't think moving Earthshatter down is too egregious; it's an AOE snare. Many IB builds pick it up, and it brings decent utility—nothing stand out, but extra snares are always welcome in all scales of play.
More to the point, BoG is not worth a 13pt mastery, and I doubt it ever will be. 25% AA damage, as nice as it seems on paper, adds nothing to the playstyle or playability. It's one more button to fit into an already packed rotation, that costs a lot of grudge when grudge management is harder than ever before.
Why take a skill if it turns your playability into a version of SNB KotBS? What great gameplay. Walk around mashing buffs—is that what tanks are supposed to be?
Dackjanielz wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 8:56 pm
I like the idea of BoG being lowered in the tree and being made cheaper, while Runic Shield becomes core, then getting Grumble back.
However, I doubt we will get Grumble back, at least in its current state. Otherwise, it never would have been removed.
Maybe if it heals for less now but it also heals team m8s too? Or at the least you and your oath friend perhaps?
IMO the Gumble going is a bad change is a bad change is a bad change. There was little reason to remove Grumble aside from trying to self-justify the changes to BG. Leaving it in when they gave BG WotLK would have made the two masteries asymmetric - just as it is with BoG. So the reasoning doesn't make sense, unless it's some insidious attempt and nerfing IB. WAAAGH was already a bit of a poor skill, and it is much, much better than BOG in terms of group impact, resource cost, and gameplay involvement. The worst part of the GnM change was it removed something from IB playability in solo, small, and 6 scale combat, for something that does not fit the bill for those scales, and seems best for just Warband play.
My fear is that it won't come back as a core skill unchanged (as awesome as that would be - it would likely be very strong), and will end up replacing something like Oathstone and IB even more wonky; extra sustain on SNB IB would be very wild.
This is why I think GnMs re-implementation will be poor. It won't be what it was, it will be worse.
Given the track record of ability tinkering thus far, I have high expectations that GnM's return will be real sad.