Return of Reckoning

Posted: **Sun Dec 24, 2023 11:28 am**

Magus is in the same boat as engi - both need a huge overhaul and some meaningful buffs.

Posted: **Sun Dec 24, 2023 3:24 pm**

I am curious if there is some info collected about mythic plans for engi and maguses that they planned to do several months before war closure.
As I remember the plan was turrets and demons to give group wide buffs. But dont remember more info about the planned change

Posted: **Sun Dec 24, 2023 3:33 pm**

Panel wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2023 11:28 am Magus is in the same boat as engi - both need a huge overhaul and some meaningful buffs.

No they are not. Magus is a lot better off than engi. Magus has to raise only int and can put the rest in tough. Engi has to sacrifice everything into bal/ws to get close to magus damage and then has 7k health and no tough. Only the middle aoe tree is really close rest is not. Magus has also an absorb tactic and an additional heal in the utility tree and they have a strong M1 snare. Engi doesn't have anything of that.

Ask people that play both. Those that switched from engi to magus never looked back.

This is magus post patch:
viewtopic.php?t=52156

Engi is miles away from that.

That 40% damage boost on the pet was far too strong on magus that's why they reduced it to 20%. It balanced magus but destroyed engi. If you now do the same again and raise the damage for both then magus will be again overpowered while engi only mediocre. They are mirrors but not the same. They have to balance them separately

Posted: **Sun Dec 24, 2023 9:35 pm**

lumpi33 wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2023 3:33 pm
Panel wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2023 11:28 am Magus is in the same boat as engi - both need a huge overhaul and some meaningful buffs.
No they are not. Magus is a lot better off than engi. Magus has to raise only int and can put the rest in tough. Engi has to sacrifice everything into bal/ws to get close to magus damage and then has 7k health and no tough. Only the middle aoe tree is really close rest is not. Magus has also an absorb tactic and an additional heal in the utility tree and they have a strong M1 snare. Engi doesn't have anything of that.

Ask people that play both. Those that switched from engi to magus never looked back.

This is magus post patch:
viewtopic.php?t=52156

Engi is miles away from that.

That 40% damage boost on the pet was far too strong on magus that's why they reduced it to 20%. It balanced magus but destroyed engi. If you now do the same again and raise the damage for both then magus will be again overpowered while engi only mediocre. They are mirrors but not the same. They have to balance them separately

If you want to compare.

Physical dmg works very fine vs nontanks, speaking as having a physical dmg specced toons. Not to mention that you do have both a turret which debuffs armor, and a 25% armor ignore ability for 12 sec.

M1- snare is useful occasionally, from other hand engi 7 sec of magic/ranged immunity can win fights. Or save you in a situation when magus would die.

Heals- magus Aegis works great when you need a heal fast, from other hand Keg heals much more over time. Absorb tactic is indeed good, however it takes a tactic slot, unlike Keg.

Engi has a Cannon Smash if you want to help burst a specific target, magus has no morals close in dmg.

Engi also have a 660 armor tactic, which stacks with pot and a self buff, to put engi into tank armor territory.

Engi also has a -15% dodge/disrupt/block tactic, which pretty much nullifies defenses RR investment. Magus has nothing similar.

Posted: **Sun Dec 24, 2023 11:10 pm**

Zxul wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2023 9:35 pm
lumpi33 wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2023 3:33 pm
Panel wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2023 11:28 am Magus is in the same boat as engi - both need a huge overhaul and some meaningful buffs.
No they are not. Magus is a lot better off than engi. Magus has to raise only int and can put the rest in tough. Engi has to sacrifice everything into bal/ws to get close to magus damage and then has 7k health and no tough. Only the middle aoe tree is really close rest is not. Magus has also an absorb tactic and an additional heal in the utility tree and they have a strong M1 snare. Engi doesn't have anything of that.

Ask people that play both. Those that switched from engi to magus never looked back.

This is magus post patch:
viewtopic.php?t=52156

Engi is miles away from that.

That 40% damage boost on the pet was far too strong on magus that's why they reduced it to 20%. It balanced magus but destroyed engi. If you now do the same again and raise the damage for both then magus will be again overpowered while engi only mediocre. They are mirrors but not the same. They have to balance them separately
If you want to compare.

Physical dmg works very fine vs nontanks, speaking as having a physical dmg specced toons. Not to mention that you do have both a turret which debuffs armor, and a 25% armor ignore ability for 12 sec.

M1- snare is useful occasionally, from other hand engi 7 sec of magic/ranged immunity can win fights. Or save you in a situation when magus would die.

Heals- magus Aegis works great when you need a heal fast, from other hand Keg heals much more over time. Absorb tactic is indeed good, however it takes a tactic slot, unlike Keg.

Engi has a Cannon Smash if you want to help burst a specific target, magus has no morals close in dmg.

Engi also have a 660 armor tactic, which stacks with pot and a self buff, to put engi into tank armor territory.

Engi also has a -15% dodge/disrupt/block tactic, which pretty much nullifies defenses RR investment. Magus has nothing similar.

It is all theory crafting unless you can show me something similar to viewtopic.php?t=52156 with an engi.

The biggest difference is still that magus does magical damage with one stat to raise and more for defense while engi has to raise two, having less for defense and having bad armor piercing tools. Magical damage is still superior to physical damage because it is capped much lower.

That means that Magus not only has the better damage type but can also ignore raising a second stat and put everything into defense.

Engi might look okish on paper, but in reality it's really really bad. It's not only the class itself, it's also the enemies he has to face. As destro SWs and Engis are super squishy targets that are like free kills. Ad order you have to face SHs that speed away and use squig armor where you lose him as target and your cast interrupts or Magus that is a lot tougher than an Engi. Then there is the Mara with a stance that shrugs off all armor piercing, and so on...

Just an example of how bad engi is: Let's say you wanna snipe a juicy SoV Magus on a keep wall. You cast your snipe and take around 15% of his health. What does that mean? You would have to snipe him 6-7 times to actually kill him and hope that he doesn't move and doesn't get heals. What kind of a snipe is that? And that's a cloth wearing target... That's how bad engi is. Now imaging hitting a tank. It's no threat at all... Just let him shoot and smash him when you walk by...

Posted: **Mon Dec 25, 2023 12:20 am**

lumpi33 wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2023 11:10 pm
It is all theory crafting unless you can show me something similar to viewtopic.php?t=52156 with an engi.

Not entirely sure what are you so impressed about, its a video of magus killing targets 1v1, some of them under 40. Any class can do it.

lumpi33 wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2023 11:10 pmThe biggest difference is still that magus does magical damage with one stat to raise and more for defense while engi has to raise two, having less for defense and having bad armor piercing tools. Magical damage is still superior to physical damage because it is capped much lower.

That means that Magus not only has the better damage type but can also ignore raising a second stat and put everything into defense.

You can spec engi about middle tree corp dmg, no ws required then. And how combination of armor debuff on turret +12 sec of 25% armor ignore is bad?

As for cap on dmg, lets make an actual calculation. Bis medium armor mdps with armor pot will have around 3.4 k armor, or 2.4 k after the turret debuff. Lets take an engi with 300 ws- a minimum amount from armor etc with no actual investment. 300/14= 21% armor pen. 2.4 k /44= 54.5 % mitigation after the turret armor debuff, *0.79= 43% actual mitigation vs engi with no actual ws investment, compared to 40% cap on magical resistances. Now add the 25% armor ignore, and its down to 32% or so mitigation, still with no actual ws investment on engi side.

Now add the fact that if the mdps has put RR points into Deft Defender, he has an extra 18% practical mitigation vs magus- while only 3% extra mitigation vs engi with Pierce Defenses. So remind me, what exactly are you complaining about again? Unless you are attacking only tanks, in which case it might be a good idea to attack other targets first.

lumpi33 wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2023 11:10 pmEngi might look okish on paper, but in reality it's really really bad. It's not only the class itself, it's also the enemies he has to face. As destro SWs and Engis are super squishy targets that are like free kills. Ad order you have to face SHs that speed away and use squig armor where you lose him as target and your cast interrupts or Magus that is a lot tougher than an Engi. Then there is the Mara with a stance that shrugs off all armor piercing, and so on...

Just an example of how bad engi is: Let's say you wanna snipe a juicy SoV Magus on a keep wall. You cast your snipe and take around 15% of his health. What does that mean? You would have to snipe him 6-7 times to actually kill him and hope that he doesn't move and doesn't get heals. What kind of a snipe is that? And that's a cloth wearing target... That's how bad engi is. Now imaging hitting a tank. It's no threat at all... Just let him shoot and smash him when you walk by...

Ok lets make a list.

1. SW and engies being squishy- you mean vs magus? Since they both have armor stance/buffs which work very nicely vs mdps/sh.
2. You are aware that engi has a free ele resistance self buff- exactly the dmg type that Havok magus does? +Several other magus abilities, like Aegis or Infernal Blast?
3. You have a 65-100 ft range on everything- if a sh tries to get away, load on dots. Same as you know magus has to do on speeding away wl, except with wl there is an extra bonus of pet snaring you while wl is running away.
4. Magus being a lot tougher than an engi- plz elaborate on this one.
5. Mara with a stance that shrugs off all armor piercing- you are aware that mara does little single target dmg in that (Monstrosity) stance, while engi has lot of free corp dmg abilities, including spammable corp resist debuff and a spammable single target nuke?
6. Magus, just like engi, has an armor self buff which stacks with pot, so he is in mdps armor area, and not actually a cloth wearing area. From other hand, engi has an ele resist self buff, so Magus trying to snipe an engi with BoC will have exactly the same problem.
7. Also, what made you assume that you should be able to snipe a class to death with 1 ability? Who do you think magus can snipe down with a single BoC?

Posted: **Mon Dec 25, 2023 4:56 am**

they're both awful. magus is the least played class on the server by a wide margin, and the only reason engi isn't the 2nd is because there's something inherently fun about running around as a little dwarf with a gun. engi can focus on non phys dmg and while his AA might be bad without stacking bal magus doesn't get a ranged AA at all. snipe has always been a meme spec. i'm hoping the devs have big plans for both

Posted: **Mon Dec 25, 2023 8:59 am**

merry xmas
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TiqiOexD-8

Posted: **Mon Dec 25, 2023 10:35 am**

Zxul wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2023 12:20 am You can spec engi about middle tree corp dmg, no ws required then.

Yes, I know. The middle tree of engi and magus are very similar and play the same. The only difference is the 15% more crit damage on the magus sov set and the endless pandemonium tactic while engi is having the 15% defense penetration tactic. I'd say it's about the same but that's about it when it comes to mirroring. All other stuff is very different.

Zxul wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2023 12:20 am And how combination of armor debuff on turret +12 sec of 25% armor ignore is bad?
As for cap on dmg, lets make an actual calculation. Bis medium armor mdps with armor pot will have around 3.4 k armor, or 2.4 k after the turret debuff. Lets take an engi with 300 ws- a minimum amount from armor etc with no actual investment. 300/14= 21% armor pen. 2.4 k /44= 54.5 % mitigation after the turret armor debuff, *0.79= 43% actual mitigation vs engi with no actual ws investment, compared to 40% cap on magical resistances. Now add the 25% armor ignore, and its down to 32% or so mitigation, still with no actual ws investment on engi side.

You make it look like the debuffs are always up. That's not the case. The 25% armor ignore is on a looong cooldown and the pet needs to hit for that debuff. In reality you are facing A LOT of high armor and tough enemies. Everyone is running around with armor pots. It's mostly tanks, aoe maras, mSHs, def/regen WEs and zealots/shaman with stacked armor/tough/absorbs. They all have high armor and/or high toughness.

Magus has a strong debuff on his pink horror as well. The average 40 character without resi buff has around 450-500ish resis. The pet can debuff 340, leaving the target with only around 150 resis and very low mitigation. That's pretty strong and as you can see in the video for example it hits really hard.

Again, magical damage is just better and is facing less mitigation.

Zxul wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2023 12:20 am Ok lets make a list.
..
4. Magus being a lot tougher than an engi- plz elaborate on this one.
..

I only pick this point because it's a major difference between a single target Magus and a single target Engi sniper.

On paper their stats are pretty even as r40 in sov:

Code: Select all

Engineer:
Bal:    221 Base + 210+80 Sov = 511
Tough:  172 Base +  71    Sov = 253
WS:     108 Base +  80    Sov = 188
Ini:    196 Base +  60    Sov = 256
Wounds: 440 Base + 114+88 Sov = 642

Magus:
Int:    221 Base + 210+80 Sov = 511
Tough:  147 Base +  62    Sov = 209
Ini:    196 Base + 113    Sov = 309
Wounds: 391 Base + 152+88 Sov = 631

The real issue is that Engis sniper have to get as much weaponskill as possible to do any damage. They have to take fighting chance tactic for the 120WS/120BAL but it will reduce their tough by 120. This amount of WS is still not sufficient. You have to get 700ish. You need to mix sets to get at least one set with WS bonus, you have to put some talis with WS in and you need WS from renown points. Every WS you are trying to get means giving up survivability. The Magus doesn't have that issue, he is just raising int to max and then put the rest into wounds/tough/FS. So when you compare a sniper Magus to a sniper Engi then the Magus will be a lot tougher, while still doing more damage to most targets due to his magical damage type.

So in reality Engi sniper vs Magus sniper stats will look more like:

Code: Select all

Engineer:
Bal:    221 Base + 210+80 Sov = 511 + trying to get max
Tough:  172 Base +  71    Sov = 253 - 120 = 133 -> almost no tough as Engi
WS:     108 Base +  80    Sov = 188 + sacrificing everything for more WS
Ini:    196 Base +  60    Sov = 256
Wounds: 440 Base + 114+88 Sov = 642 -> low health at Engi -> ~8k health

Magus:
Int:    221 Base + 210+80 Sov = 511 + trying to get max
Tough:  147 Base +  62    Sov = 209 + talis/renown -> a lot higher tough than engi
Ini:    196 Base + 113    Sov = 309
Wounds: 391 Base + 152+88 Sov = 631 + talis/renown -> a lot higher wounds than engi -> ~10k health

.. and Magus has the Aegis with 2k instant heal and 240 more wounds for 20s and the absorb that works vs every damage type. The survivability of a single target sniper magus compared to a single target sniper engi isn't even close. Magus A LOT better. Basically the 500WS points the Engi is trying to get you can put into survivability as Magus without sacrificing anything.

It's the physical mitigation in this game that is a complete mess. Sov tanks get 100%+ physical mitigation without even trying, meaning that even after debuffs they are at capped 75% mitigation before toughness and block/dodge/disrupt/absorb. How stupid is that? It's like giving SoV engis 100% pierce without even trying and after detaunt they would still pierce 75%. Would be the same stupidity.

Posted: **Mon Dec 25, 2023 1:53 pm**

Wl not changes?!!! Jesus damm op class

Return of Reckoning

Patch Notes 22/12/2023

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