Return of Reckoning

IB SM kobs
BG BO CH in summary for me IB has the best one, all useful stats for him and a very good secondary proc, is kinda fast tho but IB can increase their AA speed if im not wrong.

SM incredible stats for his class, no waste, same lame secondary absorb proc tho.

kobs no str but they pretty much dont need str anyways and WS is something they use, their strong pvp is in reflection and they have an interesting secondary proc which gives them even more ap that they need.

BO/BG very good for their classes, BG has a very nice secondary proc.

CHosen has no str and that whole WS is pretty much a waste.

Also destro 2h are fast which in my understanding gives them a low auto attack dmg, and only BG has an useful sec proc... Sooo we can also add that destro versions on this weapon are worse as well?.

diegomess wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:44 pm ...

Nice to see all.
they all have the same DPS, slower speed just means higher dmg per hit.
Being that AA dmg is not overly important to 2H tanks, I'd say BG's faster hit just means more procs for hate and debuffs.
Anyway imo it's too small difference to matter

BluIzLucky wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:36 pm
they all have the same DPS, slower speed just means higher dmg per hit.
Being that AA dmg is not overly important to 2H tanks, I'd say BG's faster hit just means more procs for hate and debuffs.
Anyway imo it's too small difference to matter

That is not entirely true.
Difference is very small yes, but for a tank with a 3sec channel you want a speed >3.00sec so you don't "lose" autoattacks while channeling.

Earthcake wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:16 am Difference is very small yes, but for a tank with a 3sec channel you want a speed >3.00sec so you don't "lose" autoattacks while channeling.

Please dont spread this urban legend ; nobody "Lose" autoattack while channelling.
AA are firing exactly when they should, channelling or not.

So you may want slower weapons for bigger damage multiplier for bigger hits and better return on investment by AA speed increase effects, or quicker weapon to proc more often when you have 2-3 or more procs in your build.


About "correcting" weapon ; every class in the game got at least 2 or 3 shitty and useless weapons, wich everyone want to be "corrected" to be at least remotely useable ; RP staffs without healing proc, WP useless sentinel books/rememberance book/nerfed tome of repose, SM blades with weapon skill on them, etc.

There is nothing we can do unless dev's will be aligned with our requests... :p

Fenris78 wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:44 am

Earthcake wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:16 am Difference is very small yes, but for a tank with a 3sec channel you want a speed >3.00sec so you don't "lose" autoattacks while channeling.

Please dont spread this urban legend ; nobody "Lose" autoattack while channelling.
AA are firing exactly when they should, channelling or not.

So you may want slower weapons for bigger damage multiplier for bigger hits and better return on investment by AA speed increase effects, or quicker weapon to proc more often when you have 2-3 or more procs in your build.


About "correcting" weapon ; every class in the game got at least 2 or 3 shitty and useless weapons, wich everyone want to be "corrected" to be at least remotely useable ; RP staffs without healing proc, WP useless sentinel books/rememberance book/nerfed tome of repose, SM blades with weapon skill on them, etc.

There is nothing we can do unless dev's will be aligned with our requests... :p

If what you say is true, where's my autoattack during gbf then ? 2.7 speed

BluIzLucky wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:36 pm

diegomess wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:44 pm ...

Nice to see all.
they all have the same DPS, slower speed just means higher dmg per hit.
Being that AA dmg is not overly important to 2H tanks, I'd say BG's faster hit just means more procs for hate and debuffs.
Anyway imo it's too small difference to matter

You clearly don't understand how DPS works. I suppose is difficult to understand when you don't see the actual numbers, I'll give you a practical example:

Weapon A: 53.9 DPS / 2.7 speed
Weapon B: 53.9 DPS / 3.8 speed

At first glance one would think: "What's the problem they both have the same DPS". Which is true, but then you take two things into account. One is that you won't be hitting target dummies, players move, kite and do things, so you won't be hitting all the time, sometimes you will land a couple of hits only before you die or your enemy dies. The question is, how much do you want those hits to be? 240 damage per hit or 140 per hit?

If you could see the min-max damage numbers on those two weapons that I have used as an example, it would be like this:

Weapon A: 116-175 (53.9 DPS at 2.7 speed)
Weapon B: 163-246 (53.9 DPS at 3.8 speed)

As you can see, the weapon speed matter more than most think, especially on 2 handed classes. Weapon speed has always been the second thing that I look for in weapons in any game that I have ever played, sometimes you find weapons that appear as a downgrade but they are not, just because their weapon speed is better than the stats they provide. If we take into account the stats of those two imaginary weapons that I have set as examples, you would quickly realise that if the stats are similar enough, you should always go for the slow one, unless you do PvE, then you go for the fast one.

Let me give you an extra example so you understand it better:

Let's assume there's an extra choice, which is an "inferior" weapon in terms of ilvl and stats, but it comes with a fantastic slow speed:

Weapon C: 159-239 (49.8 DPS at 4.00 speed)

If this weapon had the exact same stats as the ones mentioned before, your auto attack swings would hit like a massive truck. They wouldn't be as often, which is where the S in DPS comes to take relevance, which stands for second. Your damage per second wouldn't be as high, but your damage (without the second part) will be much higher. So at the end of the day in a pvp situation, you would ALWAYS go for the slow one if you understand this.

Back to the topic, I think the stats are "fine" and indeed as mentioned, all classes have 1 or 2 mediocre or useless weapon, niche even. I think that the speed in those weapons is what needs a rework. Tanks in general have a beyond pitiful damage, so I think the slower should be 3.6 and the average should be around the 4.00 mark. In this particular case, harrower would be a "fine" weapon if it was let's say 3.6 speed. I would definitely use it in combination with the warlord set to take advantage of the armor penetration set bonus, only situation where I would use the warlord set. Main reason of why is a useless set for chosen is this, it has no good weapon to go in conjuction with.
Pity.

Amdus wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:16 am

BluIzLucky wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:36 pm

diegomess wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:44 pm ...

Spoiler:

Nice to see all.
they all have the same DPS, slower speed just means higher dmg per hit.
Being that AA dmg is not overly important to 2H tanks, I'd say BG's faster hit just means more procs for hate and debuffs.
Anyway imo it's too small difference to matter

...
So at the end of the day in a pvp situation, you would ALWAYS go for the slow one if you understand this.
...

Not sure you meant to quote me, since you are saying the same as me, just you think it matters for regen tanks to have more AA burst than hits and I don't think it's on my list of considerations when picking a weapon primarily used for its pilfer proc.

We are not exactly taking about if WLs got shafted with a 1.9 speed bloodlord weapon.

And you are wrong about higher speed weapon having higher dps, it depends, the slower speed has the higher burst and slightly more dps, this gap grows with speed buff and dmg done, and shrinks/reverses when AA speed debuffed or doing fewer hits (e.g. target dies in 6 secs) or getting fewer on hit procs.

Slower AA always wins espesially with 1-2s ICD on all procs(excluding wpn procs) If ICD was removed or 0.5s there might be reason to use faster wpns on some classes.

BluIzLucky wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:23 pm Not sure you meant to quote me

Yes

BluIzLucky wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:23 pmsince you are saying the same as me, just you think it matters for regen tanks to have more AA burst than hits and I don't think it's on my list of considerations when picking a weapon primarily used for its pilfer proc.

No, we are not saying the same at all. And I haven't said anything about regen tanks, rampage, NB nor pug issues. What does it matter the proc? If the weapon was 3.6 I'd go for the pilfer one without a second thought. A "privilege" reserved for SM and KotBS.

BluIzLucky wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:23 pm We are not exactly taking about if WLs got shafted with a 1.9 speed bloodlord weapon.

But it's fine to shaft tanks I guess. Well as a tank and on behalf of all tanks I disagree a lot. Our classes are gimped and boring enough, you already feel useless in SnB and with 2h aswell unless you are BiS. We can't have fun I guess. But then let's all complain there's a lack of tanks.

BluIzLucky wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:23 pm And you are wrong about higher speed weapon having higher dps, it depends, the slower speed has the higher burst and slightly more dps, this gap grows with speed buff and dmg done, and shrinks/reverses when AA speed debuffed or doing fewer hits (e.g. target dies in 6 secs) or getting fewer on hit procs.

No lol. I'm not wrong at all. It doesn't depend on the speed, it depends on the situation. On a stationary target, in example a PvE Boss, both weapons have the same DPS because the damage per SECOND is the exact same. But on static targets the situation is completely different, you do want slow weapons in PvP at all times and for all classes. It just happens that the difference of 0.4 for 1handed weapons is obviously not as significant as a 1s or 2s difference for a 2hander. The base damage is already higher, so the speed matters a lot and it actually makes the most difference. Test it yourself. You'll see that certain slower weapons with worse stats provide more damage than certain weapons with higher ilvl and higher stats. Except for SM and KotBS those weapons are not optimal at all. And on a very relevant note, AA speed increase doesn't change the weapon speed, but your speed. So a 3.6 weapon still has the damage of a 3.6 weapon, it's just that you hit every 1.8 seconds if you have a 50% AA speed buff. Meaning that you want slow weapons even more if you have access to one of these buffs.

In any case it doesn't really matter, nothing will change.

Amdus wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:33 pm
No, we are not saying the same at all. And I haven't said anything about regen tanks, rampage, NB nor pug issues. What does it matter the proc? If the weapon was 3.6 I'd go for the pilfer one without a second thought. A "privilege" reserved for SM and KotBS.
...
But it's fine to shaft tanks I guess. Well as a tank and on behalf of all tanks I disagree a lot. Our classes are gimped and boring enough, you already feel useless in SnB and with 2h aswell unless you are BiS. We can't have fun I guess. But then let's all complain there's a lack of tanks.

We are saying the same thing, you are just wording it differently.. and completely missing my point.
And this thread is about weapons that in my mind is only used by regen tanks (would put 7p warlord+pilfer in that category)... picked specifically for the Pilfer/lifesteal proc, if used outside that it would probably just be until BIS weapon is acquired, and it would definitely not be picked for "fun dps" builds even with both speed and str buff.

WL has builds around their AA and would lose significant damage, tanks do not, and Chosen (the weapon you want to buff) has 0 AA buffs.

SM gets about 5-15% of their single target damage from AA (I imagine Chosen is about the same. AA is also completely irrelevant with multiple targets), so to me doing less frequent AA attacks to gain 50-100 dmg more "burst" (less than crit variance on most abilities) on a total burst that's already 3-6k, with a weapon you wouldn't use for ST parties.
It's such a non-issue with trade-offs to me that I was confused you'd write such a long response to me saying "you don't understand".
Anyway, hope you get what you want, was just saying 2.7 speed has some merits too (especially for BG's Liverlopper that won't have 50% speed buff).