Return of Reckoning

It would be better if they just removed stealth altogether.

Stealth cool down doesn't need a decrease. Neither does stealth cast time.

WH/WE are most vulnerable the moment they come out of stealth and are rightly so to provide some form of counterplay. Some classes like sorc/bw already have a hard time playing against them.

A 30 second cool down makes sure a WH/WE can't pop out in the middle of a zerg, kill squish target, immediately disappear, and reappear to repeat the gank cycle.

Currently there are already many ways one can re-stealth in the face of an enemy WB. So, a lower stealth cool down and/or cast time will make bad gameplay decisions less punishable.

9/10 times when an enemy can see WH/WE in stealth, is due to bad positioning. Stealth checks while behind an enemy has lowest chance of revealing you. Please try not to stroll right in front of an enemy.

Even if you get seen, hope that you get stunned, for it will make you invisible again unless enemy is running high initiative. If you cannot shake them off, try to get behind them or los them using obstacles. Against organized groups however, you have lower chances of surviving.

sharpblader wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 9:42 am Stealth cool down doesn't need a decrease. Neither does stealth cast time.

WH/WE are most vulnerable the moment they come out of stealth and are rightly so to provide some form of counterplay. Some classes like sorc/bw already have a hard time playing against them.

A 30 second cool down makes sure a WH/WE can't pop out in the middle of a zerg, kill squish target, immediately disappear, and reappear to repeat the gank cycle.

Currently there are already many ways one can re-stealth in the face of an enemy WB. So, a lower stealth cool down and/or cast time will make bad gameplay decisions less punishable.

9/10 times when an enemy can see WH/WE in stealth, is due to bad positioning. Stealth checks while behind an enemy has lowest chance of revealing you. Please try not to stroll right in front of an enemy.

Even if you get seen, hope that you get stunned, for it will make you invisible again unless enemy is running high initiative. If you cannot shake them off, try to get behind them or los them using obstacles. Against organized groups however, you have lower chances of surviving.

I totally agree you have to allow counter play and a 20 second re-stealth is too much. It would mean every 20 seconds you are are applying your openers and their effects so target ailed by movement, melee or magical attacks, you are building addtional bloodlust and lowering your ap cost. If people start extending the opener effects with tactics like MT to 20 seconds then out of a minutes combat you have affected that target almost entirely for the full duration , not forgetting you would have EoS to apply another opener.

I think that would be unbalanced and would just end up with a nerf bat at some point. We have escaped it so far so lets not call it down on ourselves.

Good point about extending of openers, having them reapplied nonstop would be cheating. But if we had a mutually exclusive choice between different types of stealth - one like we have now and other with shorter cooldowns but neutered or no opening effects that would be interesting.

abezverkhiy wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 11:30 am Good point about extending of openers, having them reapplied nonstop would be cheating. But if we had a mutually exclusive choice between different types of stealth - one like we have now and other with shorter cooldowns but neutered or no opening effects that would be interesting.

I guess.. maybe. I just can't see the problem that needs solving.

WE\WH are a solid solo roam/ganking class, perhaps first amongst equals.
They are solid in sc\ranked sc.
and if you extrapolate ranked sc out to 2/2/2 warband play if they are solid in that they are solid in a wb party, especially with the de-buffs they bring.

Tabelrel wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 1:32 pm

abezverkhiy wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 11:30 am Good point about extending of openers, having them reapplied nonstop would be cheating. But if we had a mutually exclusive choice between different types of stealth - one like we have now and other with shorter cooldowns but neutered or no opening effects that would be interesting.

I guess.. maybe. I just can't see the problem that needs solving.

WE\WH are a solid solo roam/ganking class, perhaps first amongst equals
They are solid in sc\ranked sc
and if you extrapolate ranked sc out to 2/2/2 warband play if they are solid in that they are solid in a wb party, especially with the de-buffs they bring.

This
I am a WH main who loves the dragongun, morale pump and debuffing role in open RvR WB (with my guild)
But I was told that the debuffs WH bring to the table were not enough to justify the class picking a DpS slot as some other by some classes could even do better like SW or something and that their WB desirability were limited. I am fully aware of the slayer meta, but I strongly believed in the relevance of WH debuffs and sticked to my guns, but I recently started being convinced that I was just being stubborn and blind.
Now you say this and I come back to my previous believes on WB viability. Sure, people will prefer ST on WH.
What debuff are we talking about ? Burn armor and Dragongun - Blessed Bullets of COnfession outgoing healing ? (yes, you can hit a low defence target with Dragongun and still spread the Debuff to other targets, they will be affected by the bullet).
I would like to know, since my confidence regarding WH viability in wb was recently put in question and doubts.

This
I am a WH main who loves the dragongun, morale pump and debuffing role in open RvR WB (with my guild)
But I was told that the debuffs WH bring to the table were not enough to justify the class picking a DpS slot as some other by some classes could even do better like SW or something and that their WB desirability were limited. I am fully aware of the slayer meta, but I strongly believed in the relevance of WH debuffs and sticked to my guns, but I recently started being convinced that I was just being stubborn and blind.
Now you say this and I come back to my previous believes on WB viability. Sure, people will prefer ST on WH.
What debuff are we talking about ? Burn armor and Dragongun - Blessed Bullets of COnfession outgoing healing ? (yes, you can hit a low defence target with Dragongun and still spread the Debuff to other targets, they will be affected by the bullet).
I would like to know, since my confidence regarding WH viability in wb was recently put in question and doubts.

I found this great post from one of Taransula's blogs about being "Witchest". Taransula was one of the pre-eminent We's ,bloggers on live. Slightly, edited to avoid a ban-hammer

"Yeah, time for another new word: Witchist is what I’m calling our detractors now- and they come in two flavors. The Order witchist is generally a tank, or BW- they whine and bawl about us, with the BW screaming about TTK being one-half second and the tanks screaming about dying at all, to a witch elf. But there’s another type: these are destro players who just have it hard coded into their brains that WEs are bad for the realm, bad for the team, or just bad in general. Their rage is actually easy to explain:

1) We have stealth. What does this mean for our own team? It means when people are in the land of suck and we smell a wipe coming (which most WEs can do from pretty far off) we have the ability to vanish and survive when everyone else dies. This gives people the impression that we aren’t team players- which leads me to my next point.
2) We attack the BACK LINES in many situations, casters and healers. Now these juicy blood bags are often so far back that we flirt with the outside of our healers’ range, which causes annoyance and, in the case of a wipe, a lot of blameshifting.
3) WEs can easily outdps and outKB other dps classes who tend to die more than we do (if we are playing smart) and that leads to class jealousy; exacerbated by point #1.
4) The sexy factor. The visual appeal of the witch elf class ensures that every 3 seconds SOMEBODY rolls up a new one… though the class is easy to play, it is not easy to succeed with; and the sheer volume of witch elf players that just don’t have a knack for it certainly helps give us a bad name.

So long story short, if you’re an ignorant witchist, try learning a little more about our class before running your yap. If you play Order, why not get acquainted with all the things we SACRIFICE for the ability to jump you from stealth and piss you off while you’re eating a sandwich. If you play Destro, try learning a little more about what a witch elf needs to DO in order to actually contribute to her team. There is more to the class than Death Reaper.

My final point is this: if you are one of those who thinks that becoming superamazing at 1v1 means you automatically suck at grouping, you need to swallow your toon envy, take a deep breath, and wake up. When you can’t kill someone 1v1 it’s natural to accuse them of sucking in a group… it’s a defense mechanism I get it, but sadly it’s nowhere near as accurate as accusing someone who always groups of sucking while solo. I’ve caught the best and the brightest alone and 90% of them still seem convinced that trying to run is the best way to win. The truth is learning how to handle yourself 1v1 against all 12 enemy classes will VASTLY improve your ability to group- it helps you identify threats and get a feel for how much time you have before you need to GTHO. It also lets you identify weaknesses instantly and helps you insert your daggers where the enemy least wants to feel them…

I guess it’s pretty funny that after two years we still get so much crap from both sides. Witch hunters, much as we love to hate them, understand what we go through, though few other classes have a clue. Mythic made Witch Elf (especially as of patch 1.3.6) arguably the BEST solo class in a team game. It is a paradox we have to live with, but a good witch CAN excel at both. Regardless of what the ignorant witchists have to say about it "

I think that sums it up. its a perception thing. I'm a complete ranked noob but Ardvarka,Darkenya,Krima do pretty well in all settings, especially ranked where you are in the Melee moshpit, toe to toe doing damage and surviving. People may look at a Slayers/Choppa's big damage numbers but that doesn't include the We's\Wh's silences, disarms, staggers, wound de-buffs, Wh's armour de-buffs and i bet if you look at at death blow\damage ratio the We\Wh are higher in most cases.

If you take the essence of the Taransula post, bugging out to stealth more regularly doesn't help change that perception just enforces it !

Krima wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 7:44 pm Hes trying to bait..
WH atm is GOD tier mode with new BURN ARMOR.

(Let me use that point to make a digression to learn from my fellow WEs here when it comes to 1vs1, apologies)

Yes, Burn Armor is very strong stealth opening when you compare to what WE has (I guess except Enfeebling Strike, if you speced for Elixir of Shadows, you can apply Vehement Blades but agree that I would exchange armor redution for any of these). However, it still require stealth and equivalent of that Elixir for WH to apply second stealth ailment.
Now, playing my whole life as a healer I just now slowly learn and update my buffhead with skills of different classes to know when to disengage, use defensives morale etc.
To the conclusion: WTF is WL?!
1000+ armor debuff for 10s with 10s cooldown? I mean... there is literally nothing to this class that you could work them out trying to win the duel, right? Everyting is instant, everyting's duration is almost equal to cooldown, hit like a truck when specced right and at the same time 2 deffencive tactics make them tough as well (as shown by Beastlord videos). Any advise when fighting aginst WL?

Opeteh wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 3:22 pm

Krima wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 7:44 pm Hes trying to bait..
WH atm is GOD tier mode with new BURN ARMOR.

(Let me use that point to make a digression to learn from my fellow WEs here when it comes to 1vs1, apologies)

Yes, Burn Armor is very strong stealth opening when you compare to what WE has (I guess except Enfeebling Strike, if you speced for Elixir of Shadows, you can apply Vehement Blades but agree that I would exchange armor redution for any of these). However, it still require stealth and equivalent of that Elixir for WH to apply second stealth ailment.
Now, playing my whole life as a healer I just now slowly learn and update my buffhead with skills of different classes to know when to disengage, use defensives morale etc.
To the conclusion: WTF is WL?!
1000+ armor debuff for 10s with 10s cooldown? I mean... there is literally nothing to this class that you could work them out trying to win the duel, right? Everyting is instant, everyting's duration is almost equal to cooldown, hit like a truck when specced right and at the same time 2 deffencive tactics make them tough as well (as shown by Beastlord videos). Any advise when fighting aginst WL?

Maybe we should suggest WL gettting light armor like WE/WH.

I refocus the debate! (because we stop talking about WL? lol, or even removing the cooldown! no!) ...
it would be a question of reducing the cool down of incognito by 10 seconds to have a better fluidity in wb, in absolute terms I don't think that this revolutionizes the solo mode and that is not the debate either.
Your opinions are interesting, in particular the idea of having another shorter invisibility (wh / we) supply and / or with condition of positioning / without possibility of entry into bullet debuff / what do I know ...
(aside)
>> and ... indeed there is a huge notion of perception about wh / we, that they are useless in wb, that they do not do enough damage, that they do not have enough powerful tools etc., etc .
but I find that there is a nice recrudescence of wh / we which will dismantle the oil or the rams.
(we were 2 or 3 to do it systematically for almost 2 years, it is starting to bear fruit!) <<

@evilest : yes it's true let's delete the wh! simply ...