Tanks - how much armour is enough?

[bichka]

if i remember correctly for pve ideally you need 75%+75% (mitigation cap + penetration cap)
on live >7-8k armor is was about to archive this.
idk about pve and calculations on this server

currently i don't think such values is possible to get with current sets
it's about Warlord/Sovereign + 180 armor talis in each slot

[Tesq]

NB : Lion pet have armor pen that I fail to understand. And you’ll not mitigate a lot damage from them. Still a lion on a tank might be wasted damage, so good for you.

About this i was wondering if had any info on pet dmgs , it seeme to dish out a lot on guardian, is that thing dmg even mitigable? Sometimes i feel like is even hard to parry pets...morr than a regular dps.

[bichka]

NB : Lion pet have armor pen that I fail to understand. And you’ll not mitigate a lot damage from them. Still a lion on a tank might be wasted damage, so good for you.

About this i was wondering if had any info on pet dmgs , it seeme to be dish out a lot on guardoan, is that thing dmg even mitigable? Sometimes i feel like is even hard to parry pets...morr than a regular dps.

some lion's skills is magical at least they was on live
and that's why i sometimes used 100% disrupt skill with them, was surprised when i accidentally pressed it and log shows disrupt

[Ramasee]

Spoiler:

hard to say , is armor important ? sure , however there are several classes that can bypass, or debuff your armor a lot , then you have morale abilities, magic damage, focusing on just one stat may be easy, but is counterproductive.

Best to shoot for 4500 armor, then get as close to 0 chance to be crit, as you can , while keeping initavite over 250 , and a good amount of toughness atleast 600 before toughness buff, and a minimum of 8K wounds, no real reason to go over 10K.

this comparison is old , and taken from live calculations, but is still somewhat relevant this deals with toughness vs wounds for healers, and tanks, and gives examples of amounts vs damage etc on each to determine a good guideline to shoot for .

as well as a breakdown of each defensive stats , and the forumals attributed to each, ie rank, vs stats x attacker level etc .

https://mrmeh.wordpress.com/2010/06/22/ ... -defenses/

Everything has its cons and pros.

If You stack too much wounds, you force your party healer to focus on You more because You take more dmg and they spent more time to heal Your big HP pool. On other hand Your chance to survive morale pushes is higher.

If You stack for armor too much, You will be more vulnerable to armor ignoring attacks(Magic and positional bypass attacks)

If You stack everything in to toughnes, You gonna mitigate more incoming physical and magical dmg, but Your HP pool gonna be a bit low same as armor value.

I think the key is find perfect balance betwen defensive stats and keep Your chance to get crit as low as possible at same time.

Like Tesq written. 4000 armor unbuffed would be ok same as keeping your toughnes at 600 ish unbuffed while having 8k+ HP and chance to get crit less than 5%. Full avoidance of parry/dodge/disrubt seems like a must no matter if you 2H or SnB.

The first part about Wounds and healing isn't really correct. Toughness/Armor/Ressists essentially also just increase the amount of hits you can take before dying and so will wounds. However, If we're talking about keeping people topped on on healthbars you would be correct but the effiancy of the tank role doesn't mather if you're at 10% or 99% HP aslong as you're not dead. It all comes down to whats moast likly to kill you as a tank, guard dmg or someone actually attacking you and it's gonna be Guard dmg doing moast of the work on you.

Actually his statement about too much wounds by sacrificing mitigation creating a situation where a healer has to focus more time on you is correct. It just does not go into all the details that makes it correct. (I'm only going to explain it because it does fit with the discussion of the OP)

So there is a difference between effective health and the health that you see. Most players ignore this, but for defensive tanks EHP is pretty much the most important number to you. It is easy to have 200 more wounds than another tank but they have upwards of 15,000 more effective health than you. Effective health is how much pre-mitigation damage you actually have to take in order to die sans a healer.

I'll put this in very simple numbers that aren't realistic but prove the point the best.
Tank A has 9500 health, no armor, no toughness, no avoidance. He takes 9,500 damage and dies.
Tank B has 7500 health, no armor, no toughness, and 50% block. He has to be targeted with 15,000 points of damage before he dies.

In this example Tank B has more effective health than Tank A. Tank B has a healing modifier of 2 versus Tank A's healing modifier of 1. So a 1000 heal on tank A heals 1000 premitigation damage, but on tank B is heals 2000 premitigation damage

[Bozzax]

On live it was

(armor mit capped @75%) x (1-penetration)

So any armor (your armor - debuffs) exeeding 75% was 100% waste

I expect it to be same here

(Your want to have armor value = 3300 + the debuffs you want to counter)

[bichka]

On live it was

(armor mit capped @75%) x (1-penetration)

So any armor (your armor - debuffs) exeeding 75% was 100% waste

I expect it to be same here

(Your want to have armor value = 3300 + the debuffs you want to counter)

now take any boss/lord and look at your mitigation. if 3300 was enough for anything any mid armor char was able to tank all pve content.
effective armor = virtual mitigation (which can be over 75%) - penetration. after this cap is applied.

i am talking about pve, because i am think that in pvp armor talis for TANK is waste of slot.

[Bozzax]

Yep

the formula for defender mitigation is:
<defender armour>/(<attacker effective rank>*44)*0.4 = <defender mit>

the complete formula then, is:
<defender mit>*(1-(<attacker pen>+<attacker pen bonus>-<defender pen reduction>))=<total mitigation>

Monsters even regular ones are 41+ (rank)

Disclaimer = on live

[peterthepan3]

NB : Lion pet have armor pen that I fail to understand. And you’ll not mitigate a lot damage from them. Still a lion on a tank might be wasted damage, so good for you.

About this i was wondering if had any info on pet dmgs , it seeme to be dish out a lot on guardoan, is that thing dmg even mitigable? Sometimes i feel like is even hard to parry pets...morr than a regular dps.

some lion's skills is magical at least they was on live
and that's why i sometimes used 100% disrupt skill with them, was surprised when i accidentally pressed it and log shows disrupt

if you believe this to be the case here, please pot in bugtracker with proof

[bichka]

About this i was wondering if had any info on pet dmgs , it seeme to be dish out a lot on guardoan, is that thing dmg even mitigable? Sometimes i feel like is even hard to parry pets...morr than a regular dps.

some lion's skills is magical at least they was on live
and that's why i sometimes used 100% disrupt skill with them, was surprised when i accidentally pressed it and log shows disrupt

if you believe this to be the case here, please pot in bugtracker with proof

first of all i don't think that it's bug, second thing - i am talking about old mythic servers. I can search for picture, but it's take a time.
it was years ago and what i remember for now something like "lions roar" or similar was disruptable. I am not sure if any other pet skill was affected.

also as WE i don't care about damage type. Paper armor or resists is almost similar.

[Scottx125]

Honestly.. There is min-max and there's average play. The most efficient way to play any class is to average out your talism, renown etc.. Between useful stats. With armour the general rule for me is get to the 75% max and then have an extra 600 on top. Then you can use pots and abilities to assist with more mitigation. Invest the rest into wounds (always useful, especially for surviving morale dumps) and maybe some initiative to reduce chance to be crit. General rule is the more points you invest into a stat, the less efficient the investment becomes, so spreading out the investment is more efficient. Now sure, you won't be able to to take on someone who has gone 100% armour and hp regen, but if you were going against a mage, you'd take some damage. The 100% armoured tank would get destroyed. I generally don't support 100% focus designs unless it compliments your class, and even then I try and spread out the stat spending on useful additional stats.