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Re: New Bo's and Keep Lords System
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:11 am
by Hargrim
I guess I will stop responding about keep lords on forums because apparently reading is too much to ask.
Re: New Bo's and Keep Lords System
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:35 am
by AxelF
Hargrim wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:57 am
zgolec wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:20 am
Hargrim wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:03 am
BOs are supposed to matter, the thinking is:
1 BO controlled by opponent - keep lord get some buffs, minor headache
2 BOs controlled by opponent - major headache
3 BOs controlled by opponent - woops, we are having very bad time...
4 BOs controlled by opponent - woops, wiped by keep lord
Now we just need to align the values of keep lord HP and healing we give to lord each minute for controlled BOs.
With 1 BO keep lord should require between 10 and 20 minutes, with 2 BOs more, with 3 you should not be able to kill the lord without massive numbers.
First of all i think lord is way too much hp on start.... That pve in pvp pill is just meh.
But that's just me
On the other side this BO controlling thing that influence Lord is very good idea - it can greatly reduce zerging problem.
BUT...
Consider that BO capping for attacking side can help to kill lord.
For example attacking side controls
1 BO controlled by attacking side, debuff on lord dmg
2 BO controlled by attacking side, armor debuff on lord
3 BO controlled by attacking side, wounds debuff on lord
4 BO controlled by attacking side, further debuff on lord
This way you could reward not zerging in one place as it is now. Players will be forced to spread on map and fight for BOs not just hit lord/defend bottom floor with huge zergs as it is now. Guess this could reduce lag/stability problems with huge forces clashes in one place as well as add some strategic side to fights not just mindless zerging. It will also allow slightly smaller forces that use their brain to win even with greater numers of enemies that just mindlesly zerg. Just a thought.
Anyway nice to see you ppl trying out new things. Hope this will workout somehow.
Attackers usually already have AAO, there is no need to give bonuses to the attacking side. Bonuses to the defenders however will give everyone a better fight.
I'm not sure what you mean here, do you mean attackers have AAO because they're outnumbered, or did you mean to say defenders usually have AAO?
It's very rare that a side will begin a keep assault with AAO as there's very little chance of a successful capture if you're outnumbered. However, what often happens is a lot of people on the defending side will head to the active PvP zone or (whisper it..…) switch sides for a keep defense, so the attacking side often finds themselves with AAO halfway through the assault attempt.
Either way I don't see any negatives for gameplay in adding bonuses to the attacking side for holding BOs - if the attackers outnumber the defenders then giving them an incentive to split their forces and take some BOs will make for a more even numbered and therefore better fight at the keep.
If the attackers have AAO and so are outnumbered it would be a very risky strategy to send some of their already outnumbered troops off to take BOs in order to debuff the lord, however, it might be a tactical masterstroke allowing them to more quickly down the Lord before the superior numbers of defenders can break in and wipe them.
Either way I don't see any drawbacks?
Re: New Bo's and Keep Lords System
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:59 am
by Fallenkezef
Hargrim wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:09 am
Azerreth wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:36 am
two different things entirely on the lore bit, mechanics for classes is different than common sense. A keep lord would be weaker than a fort lord, and the fort lord would be weaker than the city lord. At least that is how it has been in warhammer, anyone in a higher position has gotten there by strength or power sometimes both. It is only logical to assume the fort lord and city lord would make the keep lord look like a piss ant in comparison
This is logic, not lore.
Point of order. The higher the rank, the less time spent in the field and the older the cimmander.
The younger, tougher commanders would be seeing regular action on the frontiers while the older commanders would be in the bigget forts commanding a desk and using thier strategic skills as opposed to being in the front line and bashing skulls like a junior officer.
So thr smaller the fort, the tougher the Lord, not the other way around.
Re: New Bo's and Keep Lords System
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:43 am
by ella
I don't know why it was ever changed from the old system of players defending keeps, i liked the funneling and fighting players for hours rather than trying to pve lords down for hours. Lock the posterns and return the lords to normal for awile.
Re: New Bo's and Keep Lords System
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:44 am
by Rackiera
I left 2 1/2 hours ago, came back, no keeps above 3 stars, doors down on order keep, 3 Destro WB and 2 Order in zone and not flipped to either side.
Not one Destro attacking Lord in order keep despite all doors down.
Just passing on information.
Re: New Bo's and Keep Lords System
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:53 am
by zgolec
ella wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:43 am
I don't know why it was ever changed from the old system of players defending keeps, i liked the funneling and fighting players for hours rather than trying to pve lords down for hours. Lock the posterns and return the lords to normal for awile.
Hell yeah... no bs pve on pvp ;p
Re: New Bo's and Keep Lords System
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:00 pm
by biqbox
The way I see and feel this playing out is with even numbers, zone will never lock.
1) If you defend lord, other side will camp BO's and lock zone.
2) If they attack and kill keep defenders, everyone defending will leave keep and take BO's - making Lord unkillable.
3) If attackers leave Keep and try to win back BO's - defenders get back inside Keep and we are back to 1.
4) Since exp towards next star is being reset over and over. The natural trading of BO's that occur makes it a neverending stalemate. You normally need a larger force to take a BO. That larger force drains the defense of other BO's which are getting taken "from behind" as soon as they are left with a smaller defense.
Today most people I played with just quit oRvR in boredom. We got our participation let's just "give" the zone away and AFK wait for loot rolls.
My take on oRvR is that the Lord him/herself should not be the main obstacle. If you break the doors, you annihilate the defenders then the keep should fall quickly. Now it's even worse than before (which was a 40minute PvE zzfest unless he reset or other side managed to push through after 18 attempts). If you cannot defend against the attack the keep should fall! You should not rely on keep lord wiping the attackers or that you have a long enough time to wait for more people to come online before attacking again.
Since there is no end-goal with locking a zone (city sieges are not in yet) all you do by defending is prolonging your chances to get loot.
oRvR should be centered around Keep defence / Keep attack. It makes for so many more viable playstyles. Now it's just blob vs blob until either side gets bored and leaves.
Re: New Bo's and Keep Lords System
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:34 pm
by Nekkma
Hargrim wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:03 am
BOs are supposed to matter, the thinking is:
1 BO controlled by opponent - keep lord get some buffs, minor headache
2 BOs controlled by opponent - major headache
3 BOs controlled by opponent - woops, we are having very bad time...
4 BOs controlled by opponent - woops, wiped by keep lord
Now we just need to align the values of keep lord HP and healing we give to lord each minute for controlled BOs.
With 1 BO keep lord should require between 10 and 20 minutes, with 2 BOs more, with 3 you should not be able to kill the lord without massive numbers.
If the idea is that the attacker needs to control 2 BOs to take a keep then a massive number advantage is assumed or the lord needs to be adjusted down alot. Heck, with the proposed system the best defense is to just sit with one wb on 3 BOs and lol at the attackers trying to kill the lord. Even allowing holding two BOs to cancel out the oponent holding two BOs would stretched the attacker to thin without a serious number advantage. The notion about the infuence of BOs above is, imo, flawed as it assumes control of 3 BOs and the enemy keep for 10-20 minutes.
Re: New Bo's and Keep Lords System
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:40 pm
by Raggaz
zgolec wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:53 am
ella wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:43 am
I don't know why it was ever changed from the old system of players defending keeps, i liked the funneling and fighting players for hours rather than trying to pve lords down for hours. Lock the posterns and return the lords to normal for awile.
Hell yeah... no bs pve on pvp ;p
Its turning into less and less pvp.
We dont fight for anything anymore, now we dont even have to fight to take keeps.
Well killing the lord I suppose. Thats about all the fighting we do now..
I really dont get it. There is no pvp in this system, it is bo sitting and pve'ing lord.
MAKE US HAVE TO FIGHT FOR EACH BO!!
Re: New Bo's and Keep Lords System
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:53 pm
by Egoish
Azerreth wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:20 am
So let me ask the simple question, not out of disrespect but frustration at how powerful these lords are. When we get to the fortress's, cities and further down the line when you start adding other junk how strong will they be comparatively to the current lords? I mean for a fort or city lord to be as strong as a keep lord is kind of weak lore wise, these small scale lords in the keeps should be NO WHERE near the level of power of a fortress lord or city lord.
Have you even thought about the needed power increase on our part, a keep lord should NOT take two or so warbands to take and should not take thirty minutes + to kill. This is a huge issue and now with holding Bo's he can get a buff and he can be pulled down stairs, up stairs and every which way on top of his already over tuned stats. So when forts come out which seems to be moving closer and closer to actually happening, how hard will they be? How many do you expect for us to bring to this mess that will eventually occur. IF you have a fully conq'd out six man you SHOULD be at the comparative level of the "Keep lord" Which makes sense as that is their level of power, which means a warband with at least a good portion of their members having conq gear should be able to do more than they currently can.
I dont find the keeps at this point really as entertaining because after all our hard work to get into the damn thing they have almost an hour or so worth of defending they can do? Especially without the timer on what side you can play, you should put a four or so lock out on switching sides once you are flagged for rvr so X-Realming is less of a hindrance to the keep battles. At this point the five star lock-out will probably be the preferred way to lock a zone... which I know is not anyone's intention.
If anything fort encounters should scale in complexity rather than be an even longer dps task, city encounters should also be more complex but may be easier to tune since they can be instanced.
Fort lords will need to have more hp due to the zerg rush but the current mechanics being implemented making capping a zone more complex and require coordination makes me happy with the direction the devs are going. Not every idea is going to be a winner but if more people would join the tests then you wouldn't have to live test things...
Personally i'd love to see less pve in the pvp but the only realistic method would be promoting a player or players to keep lord level when the inner door goes down, which would be a hugely complex task.
Perhaps as the guild buy in comes live we'll see more coordinated alliances and better defence of keeps/bo's rather than the current blob/relog meta.