[Review] [Mara] Gift of monstrosity

[daniilpb]

Hmmm, if this hand is so unused in organized play then why shouldn’t it be toned down a bit? It won’t change much as far as people here stated. On paper the Gift looks very powerful and I also know certain situation where it was very strong.
And damage arguments: some say that marauder doesn’t have enough dps to kill good soloers but how is damage potential related to defense capabilities? Something like don’t nerf my defenses because I don’t have enough dps???
For that reason, why not ask OP to think about trade: take away durability but give some utility/damage.
Currently, I couldn’t see any really good arguments for not reducing the resistance to armor penetration.

Spoiler:

Currently, it looks like: don’t nerf it cause no one uses it; don’t nerf it cause the mostro build is not strong enough

[Akilinus]

Hmmm, if this hand is so unused in organized play then why shouldn’t it be toned down a bit? It won’t change much as far as people here stated. On paper the Gift looks very powerful and I also know certain situation where it was very strong.
And damage arguments: some say that marauder doesn’t have enough dps to kill good soloers but how is damage potential related to defense capabilities? Something like don’t nerf my defenses because I don’t have enough dps???
For that reason, why not ask OP to think about trade: take away durability but give some utility/damage.
Currently, I couldn’t see any really good arguments for not reducing the resistance to armor penetration.

Spoiler:

Currently, it looks like: don’t nerf it cause no one uses it; don’t nerf it cause the mostro build is not strong enough

From playing aoe mara where monstro is almost the only option.
I see it as: you deal lower amount of dmg but its reliable dmg. So if you reduce the reliable dmg then you should get "higher numbers" in return. Your proposal sounds fine by me

[Tesq]

The mara is also the best morale streaper / stopper in game, aswell have 2 def component on GoM (heal aswell). The aoe stuff are fine you are a mobile dps you can move 100% of time and do aoe. Static dps are stronger of.course because the easiest counter is moving out from the aoe range.. destru side all melee can aswell benefith from an aoe block/parry debuff from bg, what you are looking in term of dmg on the class itself is granted from other source unique to destru side in this case. I remind you again wrecking ball dmg was buffed and mara is the best armor stack counter in game if he want, but he can also aoe while being it.
The average lowest dmg possible will be higher on mara than on other classes as it tend to be average more similar across all classes due armor pen. Tbh aoe wise mara is pretty fit for his role. Nerf GoM should not correspond to have a off rebalance as mara have no trade off for get more off stuff, sl/chopp have an armor/res debuff of 50% , mara dont. If there is a class which aoe suck is chopp not mara.

Mara simply have a way too performing dmg denier. It' the reason why the proposal focus on armor pen reduction and not on heal, mara with heals proc still have a def advantage vs not physical dps but with both 100% armor pen reduction and heal on GoM it create an unfair sich for order physic dps in orvr.

Moreover as @told wrote, this stack with zealot tactic so it will still be 10+10= 20% + 1k of heal proc.

Furthermore the average armor pen is 50% even just cut half the buff would still= to negate the opposite armor pen this is how strong the skill is.

[Dabbart]

3 questions on this, and forgive my ignorance.

1, how is armor pen reduction calculated? Ie you have 20% reduction and opponent has 50% penetration, does opponent have 30%(50-20) or 35%(50-20%{15})? Pretty sure it’s additive(30%), based on the arguments here, but not positive.

2, does losing 90% of the Maras reduction not seem a massive chunk to take? I don’t know the class well enough to enter the DPS/survival portion of the argument, but is there a reason lessening to 25% isn’t “on the table”? As Tesq said, 50% would still negate “most” players armor pen entirely...

Keeping in mind one can always tweak it after the fact, going from 100% to 10% seems like a very drastic alteration to begin with. Or am I missing something?

3, how much armor pen reduction can the Mara gain via gear in addition? I believe the Z has the best/only way to stack pen reduction via tactic/ability(ignoring short term morales), is that correct? Basically, what’s the min/max armor pen reduction possibilities if changed to 10%?

The combination of the 1 and 3 probably answers number 2 however.

Overall on a DPS though, in a group you don’t inherently require glass cannons from both or 1/3 of your DPS classes. Having a super tanky mega debuff pull-Mara in a 3/2/1 doesn’t require crazy spike to get kills, you have 3 DPS. That has been my experience playing alongside many Maras anyways(mostly solo Tanking on BO, or healing on Z) Again, extremely limited experience with the Mara class, so I won’t attempt to say what is or isn’t required specifically here.

Spoiler:

as someone whom has given Tesq **** for it, I should give him credit. A well written, and perfectly legible OP and follow up posts. Thanks Tesq. The time you spent on this is evident.

[Danord]

Spoiler:

All i see is another #wot from the master......

[Darosh]

Spoiler:

3 questions on this, and forgive my ignorance.

1, how is armor pen reduction calculated? Ie you have 20% reduction and opponent has 50% penetration, does opponent have 30%(50-20) or 35%(50-20%{15})? Pretty sure it’s additive(30%), based on the arguments here, but not positive.

2, does losing 90% of the Maras reduction not seem a massive chunk to take? I don’t know the class well enough to enter the DPS/survival portion of the argument, but is there a reason lessening to 25% isn’t “on the table”? As Tesq said, 50% would still negate “most” players armor pen entirely...

Keeping in mind one can always tweak it after the fact, going from 100% to 10% seems like a very drastic alteration to begin with. Or am I missing something?

3, how much armor pen reduction can the Mara gain via gear in addition? I believe the Z has the best/only way to stack pen reduction via tactic/ability(ignoring short term morales), is that correct? Basically, what’s the min/max armor pen reduction possibilities if changed to 10%?

The combination of the 1 and 3 probably answers number 2 however.

Overall on a DPS though, in a group you don’t inherently require glass cannons from both or 1/3 of your DPS classes. Having a super tanky mega debuff pull-Mara in a 3/2/1 doesn’t require crazy spike to get kills, you have 3 DPS. That has been my experience playing alongside many Maras anyways(mostly solo Tanking on BO, or healing on Z) Again, extremely limited experience with the Mara class, so I won’t attempt to say what is or isn’t required specifically here.

Spoiler:

as someone whom has given Tesq **** for it, I should give him credit. A well written, and perfectly legible OP and follow up posts. Thanks Tesq. The time you spent on this is evident.

On the topic of armor pen stacking:
Every class can stack between 8-15% armor pen reduction through gear, some can get slightly higher numbers through tactics and abilities (aswell as some archetype-gated gear pieces). However, a full stack is hardly worth it, because you'd have to rely on lair items for a good junk of the stack and tradeoff plenty of stats and setboni opportunities. So meh.

TLDR: 10% wouldn't cut it, too drastic of a change, imo.

[Saftdryck]

The game is not balanced around 1vs1. Monstro mara can be difficult to kill if he specs tanky in those situations. Even as offensive specced, you turn GoM when focused and have to sacrifice your dmg output drastically, spam st or aoe to proc the ability buff to get armor penetration ignore buff, thus breaking your detaunt.

First of all GoM wont help you against WH or casters, thus nerfing something, that is not overperforming by any standards sounds bit overkill does it? Secondly, Marauders are suffering at the moment in initiative debuff era quite alot, since marauders have smallest base initiative from all destro classes (as far as i know) and berfing their survivability even more?

[dansari]

I don't think anyone is arguing that you lose dps when you swap to Monstro when you have no points in the Monstro tree (sorry, but duh). The argument is that 100% armor pen reduction is too strong for a core stance. Is it, or is it not? Why or why not?

[Saftdryck]

I don't think anyone is arguing that you lose dps when you swap to Monstro when you have no points in the Monstro tree (sorry, but duh). The argument is that 100% armor pen reduction is too strong for a core stance. Is it, or is it not? Why or why not?

Without any context, yes it would be. However how the mechanic works, the win-lose sum of mutating to GoM, even if you're specced Monstrosity does not make marauder overperform in any scale other than 1vs1 and even that is debatable if it even performs too well. Again, you have to be specced high armor and really tanky for GoM actually giving you benefits of armor pen reduction.

[Tesq]

Spoiler:

3 questions on this, and forgive my ignorance.

1, how is armor pen reduction calculated? Ie you have 20% reduction and opponent has 50% penetration, does opponent have 30%(50-20) or 35%(50-20%{15})? Pretty sure it’s additive(30%), based on the arguments here, but not positive.

2, does losing 90% of the Maras reduction not seem a massive chunk to take? I don’t know the class well enough to enter the DPS/survival portion of the argument, but is there a reason lessening to 25% isn’t “on the table”? As Tesq said, 50% would still negate “most” players armor pen entirely...

Keeping in mind one can always tweak it after the fact, going from 100% to 10% seems like a very drastic alteration to begin with. Or am I missing something?

3, how much armor pen reduction can the Mara gain via gear in addition? I believe the Z has the best/only way to stack pen reduction via tactic/ability(ignoring short term morales), is that correct? Basically, what’s the min/max armor pen reduction possibilities if changed to 10%?

The combination of the 1 and 3 probably answers number 2 however.

Overall on a DPS though, in a group you don’t inherently require glass cannons from both or 1/3 of your DPS classes. Having a super tanky mega debuff pull-Mara in a 3/2/1 doesn’t require crazy spike to get kills, you have 3 DPS. That has been my experience playing alongside many Maras anyways(mostly solo Tanking on BO, or healing on Z) Again, extremely limited experience with the Mara class, so I won’t attempt to say what is or isn’t required specifically here.

Spoiler:

as someone whom has given Tesq **** for it, I should give him credit. A well written, and perfectly legible OP and follow up posts. Thanks Tesq. The time you spent on this is evident.

On the topic of armor pen stacking:
Every class can stack between 8-15% armor pen reduction through gear, some can get slightly higher numbers through tactics and abilities (aswell as some archetype-gated gear pieces). However, a full stack is hardly worth it, because you'd have to rely on lair items for a good junk of the stack and tradeoff plenty of stats and setboni opportunities. So meh.

TLDR: 10% wouldn't cut it, too drastic of a change, imo.

As long is inferior to 50% because that is the value which negate totally anyway enemy pen.

So 50+ is equal to 100% basically., I can agree on this being a drastic changes but is the armor pen the problem, since it reduces the penetration and not dmg the higher the stack the best the results while this may seems stupid it is not, the armor pen reduction is more than proportionally and counter better actually armor debuff than armor pentration.
Probably a better value would be at eye 20 % , i used 10% since that is a present value on a existing tactic and can be used as a stand poimt for a balance since you know, tactic require to use a slot while GoM proc are given for free.

It is excatly given for free... dmg buff as said for chop/sl are corrispective to a malus which mara/wl dont have.

@other ppls Mara dont loose dps going mostro, mostro.is an aoe mastery, mara have no other aoe mastery therefor is balanced for that and it should nor be compared to ST dmg from.st build lol
Sav/ brut dosent matter here nor matter small scale/solo.

If you want aoe you go mostro if you go st you sav/brut.