Return of Reckoning

anarchypark wrote:let the tanks be tank.
you're giving dps tool to tank for competing group spot, pushing tanks to dps spec even more.
it looks having many options for tank. actually it's not.
let's say BG finally got wb spot, by 2h CD + armor debuff. only that spec will be viable.
less variety. same goes for IB.

it's signature of the mdps. spec and choice.
but i'm not against testing. only if giving it to other than tanks.
melee SH/SW or WP/Dok?

To have the max amount of armor reduction you would need to spec fully into Vengeance for IB and Malice for BG. Both are offensive paths, and a 2h is required to use the skills you get from those trees (especially for IBs). If you're investing that many points in Vengeance/Malice, at that point you're closer to a Tanky Mdps instead of a Tank.

I also don't understand how 2h BGs will be the only viable BG spec in WBs with a hate-based armor debuff? By the time you've applied your armor debuff yours or the enemy's WB will have a morale push ready and the fight will end soon. It's a change for small scale, it won't have any effect whatsoever for WB fights.

And btw, where do you see all those tanks "pushed into dps specs"? I've personally yet to find someone that feels forced to play an offensive spec on a tank since i've started playing. It's the other way around.

Is it possible to make the IB/BG debuff a lower base amount than it already is- but make it stack like a morale ability? Put it on a 30s cooldown, 5-10s duration that way it can't be spammed but if applied at the right time and not parried or blocked allows for a coordinated melee burst.

-or-

Allow it to stack with all armor debuffs EXCEPT Mara/WL. This way you can still have the same value armor debuff the mara/WL bring to the table, but you can instead bring a WH/WE in their place.

NoRKaLKiLLa wrote:Is it possible to make the IB/BG debuff a lower base amount than it already is- but make it stack like a morale ability? Put it on a 30s cooldown, 5-10s duration that way it can't be spammed but if applied at the right time and not parried or blocked allows for a coordinated melee burst.

-or-

Allow it to stack with all armor debuffs EXCEPT Mara/WL. This way you can still have the same value armor debuff the mara/WL bring to the table, but you can instead bring a WH/WE in their place.

why even the change, this was not to suppose nerf the armor debuff, IB/BG with 5 sec CD will have the same up tiem of any undefeatbale mara/WL debuff if then dev decide ot requrei less spam that's another story but by simple swap the value the update time remain the same or is eitehr lowered by have a natural coutner in parry.

Marauder and WL dps is reduced. This is a certainty these classes use their debuffs to deal with armour (all dps have a method of dealing with armour whether it's tactics like pick on your own size, or abilities like cutting claw) has anyone in this thread actually tried to play without them? or with even a tank debuff only? The damage is significantly worse over time.

Well i can see a few possible out comes to your suggestion.

1. This is unlikely but IB?BG move up past SM/BO for offensive tank. Mara and WL are forced out of the meta for a second toon with more dps. Mara might see some play still in 1 melee 2 rdps parties.

2. The more likely out come. SM/BO remain top for offensive tank because of their raw damage contribution to group. If you are aiming for max damage a MARA/WL would make no sense to add at this point.

The fact that IB/BG aren't taken in the meta is nothing to do with their classes or abilities. It is because the current meta is about having so much damage a target dies through guard and heals and that is something that proper CC is playing second fiddle to atm.

The problem in this proposal is that you cant compare the WL and the Marauder. We all know why the marauder is the epitome of Mdps.

But the WL isnt. You should know that. And the rumors that double WL is meta is just wrong. Actually the premade is already better without a WL. After this change there will be absolutely no need to take a WL anymore into a group.
Those change would hurt the WL much more. And with the coming changes (pet nerfs) it will just get worser. If this happens give WL atleast an inc HD so atleast they will bring this into group.

The Marauder would still have all 3 debuffs in a tree and will get easy a spot. The WL wont anymore.

Tesq wrote: why even the change, this was not to suppose nerf the armor debuff, IB/BG with 5 sec CD will have the same up tiem of any undefeatbale mara/WL debuff if then dev decide ot requrei less spam that's another story but by simple swap the value the update time remain the same or is eitehr lowered by have a natural coutner in parry.

Switching the debuff to a tank, who cannot leap/pull/charge to a target is a nerf.

Current IB/BG armor debuff is useless.

Allowing it to stack would be a huge buff and reason to bring an IB/BG to the fight, but it would need a caveat- which I think a longer cooldown and shorter duration would make the ability far more dynamic than simply swapping the abilities.

gandresch wrote:The problem in this proposal is that you cant compare the WL and the Marauder. We all know why the marauder is the epitome of Mdps.

But the WL isnt. You should know that. And the rumors that double WL is meta is just wrong. Actually the premade is already better without a WL. After this change there will be absolutely no need to take a WL anymore into a group.
Those change would hurt the WL much more. And with the coming changes (pet nerfs) it will just get worser. If this happens give WL atleast an inc HD so atleast they will bring this into group.

The Marauder would still have all 3 debuffs in a tree and will get easy a spot. The WL wont anymore.

This propaganda about Marauder being the "epitome of mdps" should stop. It's been proven wrong so many times it's becoming a meme.

Both WL/Mara are the best Mdps, and the representation of those classes compared to Choppa/Slayer shows it. Mara has the Trio of debuffs, but is less mobile, WL has better mobility and damage.

Why bring a slayer over a WL? The WL deals slightly more damage, has better mobility and is tankier than a Slayer. WL would still have their Armor Debuff (albeit weaker) and will still be stronger than a class that doesn't have an armor debuff in an armor-meta game. The same can be said about Maras and Choppas.

The problem of giving the stronger armor debuff to IB/BG is that the debuff is required to deal any damage whatsoever, and tanks have a really harder time reaching their targets compared to WL/Mara. And the fact that it would put miles inbetween offensive BG/IBs (which are the best offensive tanks already) and all the other offensive tanks.

I am talking about premades. And yes the Marauder is the best mdps class. And the tactic that ignores armor is great aswell.

Why? Because the WL does low damage when the pet is dead. And that is the Problem because he is so easy to counter.

gandresch wrote:I am talking about premades. And yes the Marauder is the best mdps class. And the tactic that ignores armor is great aswell.

Why? Because the WL does low damage when the pet is dead. And that is the Problem because he is so easy to counter.

I'm also talking about premades. No one here is talking about Pug groups.

WL pet is a double edged knife. You deal more damage compared to a Mara (a lot more) when your pet is alive and deal less when it's dead. It's how the class works and always has. It's what makes WLs an high-risk high-reward class. It's a good mechanic, and shouldn't be touched. You don't want pets to become immortal npcs that you send on an enemy and proceed to ruin his life for all the fight. It's something that needs to be managed and the current mechanic does exactly that.

I think if you try hard enough you can find a reason to change any ability, but that's not the point.

Sober up and keep like it was on live.