AOE and Witchbrew

[Miszczu5647]

The WE already has the inherent +15 crit tactic

Yeah but its inherent downside is that you not allowed to use your finishers which is kinda really detrimental to the class

Have do agree with you. When I run without WB I lost bloodlust because of time not because I spent it on finishers. Finishers are good only if your target is between 5-30 feet and running - to put some pressure.

@ Krima I love to read about the old times. Do you have something more about the WE from ancient timestimes

[drmordread]

Unless the target is running away I do not even bother with finishers. I keep my BL up and keep the 15 crit bonus going. I don't need finishers with +15 crit.

On a WH it is different, they dont get the crit bonus and their burst is n their finishers, unlike the WE, who has burst practically all the time (crit bonus r no crit bonus).

[drmordread]

The WE in RoR is already unbalanced on the OP side enough, the main reason I have not played mine ever since I got full t4 RvR gear set up. You give me AoE from WB and I may have to delete the poor thing.

There was a reason why the AoE ability was nerfed. The WE already has the inherent +15 crit tactic, add that to an attack that is AoE and high damage and it was killer.

I think the ICD on WB is important, that how it was on live..it had some ICD on it, I think it was a little faster like 0.6s or 0.7s not 1s for sure.. I have videos of it unloading in 3-4 secs. Witchbrew dmg could hit for 400s - 500dmg.

Taking a look back...I remember very well WE being a fun class to play and some of the cool stuff got completely destroyed by whining on forums at that time.. when they balanced stuff, live war would just remove and rework the skill instead of balance.

Find below a taste of what we had ...and actualy made alot of sense:

x11 suffering: Healer's Bane All of your Path Of Suffering attacks gain a 25% chance to reduce the victim's healing abilities by 50% for 10 seconds.

x3 Suffering Kiss of Doom Increases the chances for all of your Kisses to trigger by 25%

x7 Carnage Broad Severing Sever Limb will now sweep out in an arc in front of you, striking enemies within 20 feet.

x3 Carnage Sharpened EdgeAll of your Frenzies will now reduce the victim's armor by 75% for 3 seconds.

x11 Treachery Masterful Treachery After hitting an enemy with Treacherous Assault, Vehement Blades, or Enfeebling Strike, you will deal 20% more damage for 10 seconds.

x7 Treachery Baneful Touch Any time you attack an enemy from the sides or rear, there is a 25% chance that the victim will lose 40 Action Points

All the above tactics actualy made sense, instead of balancing it they change into crap... Like baneful touch now "when you atack from sides or rear you gain 15 ap points" really? WEs dont need more AP, we fine with kiss of betrayal. Whoever wrote down the original skills and tactics of WE did a really good job on it.

That is IMO waaayyyyyy too much, especially if you are trying to strike somekind of balance among mdps classes. (I have a few ideas on balancing the WH/WE that I am still working n. I plan on doing a post once I do )

[Krima]

There was a reason why the AoE ability was nerfed. The WE already has the inherent +15 crit tactic, add that to an attack that is AoE and high da
That is IMO waaayyyyyy too much, especially if you are trying to strike somekind of balance among mdps classes. (I have a few ideas on balancing the WH/WE that I am still working n. I plan on doing a post once I do )

LOL, how its way to much ? Looking forward to see your ideas..
implementing WEs old tactics back is a good idea to balance the class. Atm out of 9 masteries that build CORE Tactics
5 are completely useless:
-Broad Severing:
-Sharpened edge:
-Enveloping Shadows
-Kiss of doom
-Spetic Blade

Back in live, instead of completly destroying the tactic aboves, why not balance? they did it with
masterful trechery for ex: It was 20% dmg boost, now is 15%
Kiss of doom was + 25% to trigger kisses (players raged and claimed to be really op).. why not leave the tactic how it was created and modify that number from+ 15% to 20% to trigger kisses?...the goal here is to find balance not to destroy the tactic.
Old baneful touch..instead of removing 40 AP (I agree is too much) lets change to 20-25 action, half of what it was?

Sharpened edge: Original: All of your Frenzies will now reduce the victim's armor by 75% for 3 seconds,
Balance IMHO: All of your Frenzies will now reduce the victim's armor by 45% for 3 seconds...Back in the day we had a reason to use finishers aka puncture, HRT, ruthless assault, oyk, SS

ATM WEs are raw dmg MDPS BOTS
99% of WEs runs:
Flanking: 15% dmg
TOB: 15% dmg
IP: 50% crit DMG
Brute force: 160 str

Its fun for sometime we get to see some big numbers AW + PA hiting hard etc...it gets boring its just raw dmg. 0 utility for the grp. At the end of the day WEs are all raw dmg BOTS cycling betwen 6 or 7 tactics out of 24 possible and spaming AW. It wasnt like that when they released the game.

[Wdova]

There was a reason why the AoE ability was nerfed. The WE already has the inherent +15 crit tactic, add that to an attack that is AoE and high da
That is IMO waaayyyyyy too much, especially if you are trying to strike somekind of balance among mdps classes. (I have a few ideas on balancing the WH/WE that I am still working n. I plan on doing a post once I do )

LOL, how its way to much ? Looking forward to see your ideas..
implementing WEs old tactics back is a good idea to balance the class. Atm out of 9 masteries that build CORE Tactics
5 are completely useless:
-Broad Severing:
-Sharpened edge:
-Enveloping Shadows
-Kiss of doom
-Spetic Blade

Back in live, instead of completly destroying the tactic aboves, why not balance? they did it with
masterful trechery for ex: It was 20% dmg boost, now is 15%
Kiss of doom was + 25% to trigger kisses (players raged and claimed to be really op).. why not leave the tactic how it was created and modify that number from+ 15% to 20% to trigger kisses?...the goal here is to find balance not to destroy the tactic.
Old baneful touch..instead of removing 40 AP (I agree is too much) lets change to 20-25 action, half of what it was?

Sharpened edge: Original: All of your Frenzies will now reduce the victim's armor by 75% for 3 seconds,
Balance IMHO: All of your Frenzies will now reduce the victim's armor by 45% for 3 seconds...Back in the day we had a reason to use finishers aka puncture, HRT, ruthless assault, oyk, SS

ATM WEs are raw dmg MDPS BOTS
99% of WEs runs:
Flanking: 15% dmg
TOB: 15% dmg
IP: 50% crit DMG
Brute force: 160 str

Its fun for sometime we get to see some big numbers AW + PA hiting hard etc...it gets boring its just raw dmg. 0 utility for the grp. At the end of the day WEs are all raw dmg BOTS cycling betwen 6 or 7 tactics out of 24 possible and spaming AW. It wasnt like that when they released the game.

Sad, but I had to agree with this. Unless WE join the party or warband class it self is self-sufficient for ganking. It brings 0 utility for group(besides morale 3 - +50%crit chance for 10s for party). She has 0 group buffs and if WE doesnt spec full sufferin tree her debuffs(besides specable incommin heal debuff) are barely noticable. Fully speced in to witchbrew + inc heal debuff, her debuffs are from wracking pain -120weapon skill -120 toughnes and hearth render toxin - 90 wounds. Compare it to mara or even BG debuffs or chosens 80 wounds debuff AOE. If WE spec to standard gank spec or OYK+PA spec, those debuffs sits around 40 value which is barely noticable and hearth render toxin not worth sloting in to action bar. Her AOE is verry limited to 10s cooldown on OYK finisher and morale 2 web of shadows. In terms of group/warband usefullnes, mara is the best bet, than choppa seconded by DPS DoK and WE is on last place. One would say she is made for single target only, but I think on lvl 40 with BIS gear her single target dmg is comparable to mara or choppa on same level with exact BIS gear, but they can offer more and better debuffs/group utility.

And with all great upcomming Squig herder melee tree changes(cant wait for it) SH with all of his mobility of white lion and Shattered limbs mirror will fit in to melee trains even better than choppas.

Correct me if I am wrong, but WH is on the same spot as WE and groups prefer WL and Slayas over WHs.

[drmordread]

There was a reason why the AoE ability was nerfed. The WE already has the inherent +15 crit tactic, add that to an attack that is AoE and high da
That is IMO waaayyyyyy too much, especially if you are trying to strike somekind of balance among mdps classes. (I have a few ideas on balancing the WH/WE that I am still working n. I plan on doing a post once I do )

LOL, how its way to much ? Looking forward to see your ideas..
implementing WEs old tactics back is a good idea to balance the class. Atm out of 9 masteries that build CORE Tactics
5 are completely useless:
-Broad Severing:
-Sharpened edge:
-Enveloping Shadows
-Kiss of doom
-Spetic Blade

Back in live, instead of completly destroying the tactic aboves, why not balance? they did it with
masterful trechery for ex: It was 20% dmg boost, now is 15%
Kiss of doom was + 25% to trigger kisses (players raged and claimed to be really op).. why not leave the tactic how it was created and modify that number from+ 15% to 20% to trigger kisses?...the goal here is to find balance not to destroy the tactic.
Old baneful touch..instead of removing 40 AP (I agree is too much) lets change to 20-25 action, half of what it was?

Sharpened edge: Original: All of your Frenzies will now reduce the victim's armor by 75% for 3 seconds,
Balance IMHO: All of your Frenzies will now reduce the victim's armor by 45% for 3 seconds...Back in the day we had a reason to use finishers aka puncture, HRT, ruthless assault, oyk, SS

ATM WEs are raw dmg MDPS BOTS
99% of WEs runs:
Flanking: 15% dmg
TOB: 15% dmg
IP: 50% crit DMG
Brute force: 160 str

Its fun for sometime we get to see some big numbers AW + PA hiting hard etc...it gets boring its just raw dmg. 0 utility for the grp. At the end of the day WEs are all raw dmg BOTS cycling betwen 6 or 7 tactics out of 24 possible and spaming AW. It wasnt like that when they released the game.

Well, they had a choice, nerf/break the abilities or also add them to the WH. Since more people complained about the WH being brought up to same abilities, the decision to nerf/break was the only one.
We can't talk about bringing these back, if the WH does not get equal footing.

EDIT; Well it seems I run into all the WE's running Frenzied Mayhem, no matter what ton I am on HEHEHEHEHE!!!!!!

For the record on my RR43 WE my main set of tactics is
Brute Force
Masterful Treachery
Frenzied Mayhem
Increased Pain

I will at times switch out MT for Sharpened Edge if I know my target is a tank or a mdps with a parry build

[drmordread]

And for the record, the only tactic that a WH can spec into for additional damage is Fanatical Cleansing for additional 50% dam to crits.
The imbalance is still so heavy on the WE side that WH's can only be played by real good players, unlike the WE which is a player friendly class.

[Wdova]

And for the record, the only tactic that a WH can spec into for additional damage is Fanatical Cleansing for additional 50% dam to crits.
The imbalance is still so heavy on the WE side that WH's can only be played by real good players, unlike the WE which is a player friendly class.

On live when I had WE on RR 90+ I tried WH to find out hows WHs and how to properly counter them. Since T1 I felt like I play WE on steroids. Played him up to lvl 40 rr 50 or so and was more succesful with Exit wounds build than with BaL. Playing WE was for me harder challenge.

[drmordread]

And for the record, the only tactic that a WH can spec into for additional damage is Fanatical Cleansing for additional 50% dam to crits.
The imbalance is still so heavy on the WE side that WH's can only be played by real good players, unlike the WE which is a player friendly class.

On live when I had WE on RR 90+ I tried WH to find out hows WHs and how to properly counter them. Since T1 I felt like I play WE on steroids. Played him up to lvl 40 rr 50 or so and was more succesful with Exit wounds build than with BaL. Playing WE was for me harder challenge.

EW and the middle tree are the only saving grace the WH has IMO. Guranteed, it makes the class easier to play, heal debuff, armor debuff and EW tough debuff wind up doing more damage over all than BAL.
BUT... BAL is the cookie cutter spec all WH's are pushed into for some reason.

[Wdova]

And for the record, the only tactic that a WH can spec into for additional damage is Fanatical Cleansing for additional 50% dam to crits.
The imbalance is still so heavy on the WE side that WH's can only be played by real good players, unlike the WE which is a player friendly class.

Vindication: When You disrubt spell, Your dmg is increased by 35%.... Well, in group play if you full dodge/disrubt renowns and tanks start using hold the line, you can proc it quite often with all those sorcs, maguses, dps shammans and Zealots around the rvr lakes. Its not ideal I know and definitely not worth on soloing against melees/tanks, bug against caster I would try that

Brute force, flanking, fanatical cleansing, vindication: 15% more dmg from sides or rear, 35% more dmg when you disrubt and 50% more dmg from crits seems fun.

I agree, that both classes should be tweaked somehow especialy for group play.