MELEE: STR vs WS - Haven't seen this in a while

[Luth]

The value of weaponskill high likely has changed on RoR when compared to mythic servers, because toughness works differently here:

The effect of Toughness is independent of any other stat and is not capped by the attacker's offensive stat. Toughness will negate attack damage down to a minimum of 1.

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=16694#p183160
So if the player stacks toughness, he will still still reduce the damage of a DD who favours weaponskill over strength. On the mythic servers, the player wasted perhaps stat points when he favoured toughness over armor and got attacked by a weaponskill stacking DD with low strength (e.g. 400 strength vs 800 toughness = 400 toughness wasted), which was idiotic game design.
This is ofc just a theory that needs to be tested.

[roadkillrobin]

The value of weaponskill high likely has changed on RoR when compared to mythic servers, because toughness works differently here:

The effect of Toughness is independent of any other stat and is not capped by the attacker's offensive stat. Toughness will negate attack damage down to a minimum of 1.

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=16694#p183160
So if the player stacks toughness, he will still still reduce the damage of a DD who favours weaponskill over strength. On the mythic servers, the player wasted perhaps stat points when he favoured toughness over armor and got attacked by a weaponskill stacking DD with low strength (e.g. 400 strength vs 800 toughness = 400 toughness wasted), which was idiotic game design.
This is ofc just a theory that needs to be tested.

Have to dissagre. It was a really good design until new renown abillities showed up and destroyed it.
Before new renown system you basicly had to chose good armor pen and crit and have a ballanced dmg state against all classes or. High burst dmg with good crit but really lacking in the armor pen department. Locking up as much crit as they did with the new renown pathing aswell as crit gear from SC Emblems/Insignias gave you acess to all 3 of of the stats, as crit became dirt cheap in comparriion to the old gear/renown mastery system.
This toughness system pretty much forces you to get as much as you can in all 3 of of the stats, wich leads to 1 stat spec option for all builds tbh.

[Karast]

Not using armor tactic by yourself doesn't mean nobody using it. You should think outside of the pug specs my friend. There are a lot of setups and specs for armor tactic [ and actually it's so damn good for defensive builds/setups ].

Weren't you whining about AM morale pump and Solar Flare is useless ? Please do not make any kind of comments like this unless you make an impact on RvR with your setups.
About the WS, this is just maths, more penetration more damage on armor stacked players. The question is finding "sweetspot".

Thank you.

#1 the AM morale pump is ****. As is Solar Flare. It is not debatable unless you got some new proof to provide. It has been tested and retested and no one serious runs it, no one. Name an order warband using it? Every time you all get called out on it and the fact that it doesn't work at all you just ignore it and claim it does a few weeks later. Where is the order warband running 14 AM to get a knight to M4 for stripping? Where is an order warband that can get to M4 when you gotta deal with fast M2 from every organized destro WB out there right now.

Imagine this AM is boosting a tank. Happy?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKeOhk5 ... anielJ.h.c

Anyway, your confusing having acess to stuff with don't use stuff. WS have better effect on higher armor. Also your math seems way off. 1000 WS gives 30 pentration? I'm guessing you forgot to deduct the mitigration for toughness or something.

Nice. Make it work in a group / warband then post a video of that. An AM can't just spam boon of hysh in a warband setting. It is not a passive gain like the block tactics are, which makes it much more difficult to use effectively.

Access to stuff doesn't matter if it is not used because it is not functional to use. Case in point ranged knock down on Mara or the BO m4 morale drain. On paper they look good but they don't make it into a setup.

I forgot nothing! Test the numbers yourself! Toughness never changed in my tests. I quite literally beat on a guy, switched gear / renown, and then beat on him again to get the cleanest numbers I could. The only change was WS between attempts. If you have a SW this is really easy to test. I highly recommend doing it.

People put a lot of stock into WS stacking and it is go to advice, but it is not nearly as important or functional as people think it is.

[roadkillrobin]

If mitigration from toughness didn't change that means you didn't swap STR for Weaponskill. wich is what this thread is all about. Only thing thats intreasting is the difference of something like 160 STR vs 160 WS against 110% armor mitigarion, 60% armor mitigration and 40% mitigration. If toughness currently is that strong that the numbers don't change then the buff to toughness stat compared the WAR formula, has been drasticly overdone as it would basicly made weaponskill a pointless stat, unless you have softcap str first. Wich is, imo, a completly pointless change as it just make another stat almoast useless.

[Luth]

If toughness currently is that strong that the numbers don't change then the buff to toughness stat compared the WAR formula, has been drasticly overdone as it would basicly made weaponskill a pointless stat, unless you have softcap str first. Wich is, imo, a completly pointless change as it just make another stat almoast useless.

Toughness was the borderline useless stat before.
Maybe it could actually be tested before going on a crusade. It works like that since ages here and was already posted several times.
I don't know how to make this more clear: On WAR, strength increased the potential damage output and lowered the enemies avoidance chances, while toughness only lowered the attackers increased damage to a maximum of the attackers strength value, while it doesn't increase the defenders avoidance chances at all.
So, strength is still superior over toughness by lowering damage avoidance chances, while in terms of mitigation it is now equal to toughness.

Have to dissagre. It was a really good design until new renown abillities showed up and destroyed it.
Before new renown system you basicly had to chose good armor pen and crit and have a ballanced dmg state against all classes or. High burst dmg with good crit but really lacking in the armor pen department. Locking up as much crit as they did with the new renown pathing aswell as crit gear from SC Emblems/Insignias gave you acess to all 3 of of the stats, as crit became dirt cheap in comparriion to the old gear/renown mastery system.
This toughness system pretty much forces you to get as much as you can in all 3 of of the stats, wich leads to 1 stat spec option for all builds tbh.

On renown abilities: That toughness as a stat worked better with a different renown system is impossible and the situation that you described only worked because toughness was bad. Maybe we can leave renown abilities out of the discussion altogether; otherwise people start to "counter-argue" with item set bonuses or special group combinations on a discussion about basic stat calculations.
On WAR, toughness was a mediocre stat at best (for the above mentioned reason) and it is now a little more balanced.

[th3gatekeeper]

I feel im late to the party... I didnt play LIVE (for long) and dont know how it worked there but it always seemed to me that:

Toughness countered STR (or vice versa) and the counter to "armor" was weapon skill...

So players could stack high WS, to get around high armor... Is this not the case? It seems that toughness is also mitigating weaponskill to be largely not important? If so, doesnt that just buff armor?

According to Az, armor is overpowered and needs to be toned back...

"here's a defensive stat that actually needs bringing into line, and that stat sure ain't Toughness (hint: it's armor)"

So I guess my question is, why is weaponskill not really doing anything in terms of damage? On my Chosen, I went from Merc to BL and gained like 150 WS or something but saw no real change in damage.. Here I was thinking "man im gonna hit like a TRUCK now" and lo and behold... Nothing... (im not talking about Ravage but non spirit damage btw).

[roadkillrobin]

Not sure but weaponskill should have a 1:2 ration against light armor, 1:1 ratio against medium armor and a 2:1 ration compared to str/bs vs toughness or else it just becomes an obsolete stat. So thats probobly why toughness hit the cap after debuffing dps bonus on live.

[roadkillrobin]

I ran the numbers and in theory, Weaponskill seem to work like it should. The changes to toughness moastly affect low power classes like tanks and healers that doesn't have natural high dps bonus stats. It buffs classes that are able to get very high toughness tho wich makes toughness a much better stat then live if you're able to get those high numbers in reach of 700+. The softspot for armor pen seems to be around 45%. (without armor debuffs) I havn't ran the numbers for armor debuffs. But if WS doesn't have an noticble effect on healers, especially DoK/WP then the stat might be bugged.

[Karast]

If mitigration from toughness didn't change that means you didn't swap STR for Weaponskill. wich is what this thread is all about. Only thing thats intreasting is the difference of something like 160 STR vs 160 WS against 110% armor mitigarion, 60% armor mitigration and 40% mitigration. If toughness currently is that strong that the numbers don't change then the buff to toughness stat compared the WAR formula, has been drasticly overdone as it would basicly made weaponskill a pointless stat, unless you have softcap str first. Wich is, imo, a completly pointless change as it just make another stat almoast useless.

To get clean numbers I keep main damage stat and toughness constant. The only change between tests was increasing the base WS.

The way I did this was with buffs / renown specs / tactics / and tali's. 5 20 WS talis = 1 100stat pot, which keeps the main stat and damage bonus the same.

I only looked at the increase from adding WS alone to keep the numbers clean. You can test this for yourself pretty easily with any MDPS / Tank if you are willing to respec a little and spend some gold on tali's.

[roadkillrobin]

Cleanest way to test must be checking, like i did 160 STR then respeccing those 160 STR into WS and see what differs.

Now im not sure how the Toughness mechanic works once it have chugged away all dps bonus. But I did my calculation figuring out if the dps bonus first then doing the base damage +/- dps bonus x 1.5. And the ressault of weaponskill was basicly the same on all tests. STR have a slight benefit until you reach about 35% armor pen againat 110% Tanks. 100-60% armor mitigration WS beats STR. At 40% and lower STR beats WS.
I did these tests with 500 and 660 str with 300 and 460 weaponskill against 150, 300 and 700 toughness. And the outcome is basicly the same in every test. There was huge spikes in damage difference between 660 STR and 150 Toughness Aswell as 500 vs 700 toughness. But WS had the moast static dmg out of the two vs all armor types. When adding the AoE formula the difference between WS and STR was almoast gone. And i could really only see STR benefits against light armor classes that doesn't stack armor.