BWs Vs Sorcs

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Cimba
Posts: 376

Re: BWs Vs Sorcs

Post#21 » Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:29 am

neokingdom wrote:Riiiiiight, except infernal gift doesnt hold up too much to other tactics you get. And yes sorc melee disarm is something BW dont have, i forgot about that (actually thought they did have it). And i'm completely fine with mirrors having different abilities that the other doesn't as long as the other has an ability with the same value. My argument is that that is simply just not the case with the BW Sorc mirror.
Infernal Gift is perfectly fine. It's just that every sorc seems to think that they need to be the star player of the grp. In this context the tactic obviously doesn't fit in because it does nothing for her.
neokingdom wrote: We could say okay BW has a knockdown, but Sorc has a disarm, now even though I think an instant KD is objectively better than a casted disarm, one could argue that the sorc's disarm holds the same value as the KD. But how do you make that argument with the other abilities I listed? Especially the cleanse, wtf that has so much defensive value, what do sorcs have with the same value as a cleanse, that BW's dont have??
The knockdown requires Ignite to be applied. So while it's technically instant you still need at least two GCDs to get it through.
The value of the cleanse highly depends on your opponents but I would agree that it is one of the stronger defensive abilities in the game overall.

Aside from that your list is quite incomplete for both sides but writing it all down would take ages.

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infinity123
Posts: 15

Re: BWs Vs Sorcs

Post#22 » Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:40 am

Aurandilaz wrote:sorc looks good, bw looks stupid

sorc wins
This was what I remember at launch too. BWs were and still are, many patches out of the roof...

neokingdom
Posts: 38

Re: BWs Vs Sorcs

Post#23 » Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:34 am

Cimba wrote:
neokingdom wrote:Riiiiiight, except infernal gift doesnt hold up too much to other tactics you get. And yes sorc melee disarm is something BW dont have, i forgot about that (actually thought they did have it). And i'm completely fine with mirrors having different abilities that the other doesn't as long as the other has an ability with the same value. My argument is that that is simply just not the case with the BW Sorc mirror.
Infernal Gift is perfectly fine. It's just that every sorc seems to think that they need to be the star player of the grp. In this context the tactic obviously doesn't fit in because it does nothing for her.
neokingdom wrote: We could say okay BW has a knockdown, but Sorc has a disarm, now even though I think an instant KD is objectively better than a casted disarm, one could argue that the sorc's disarm holds the same value as the KD. But how do you make that argument with the other abilities I listed? Especially the cleanse, wtf that has so much defensive value, what do sorcs have with the same value as a cleanse, that BW's dont have??
The knockdown requires Ignite to be applied. So while it's technically instant you still need at least two GCDs to get it through.
The value of the cleanse highly depends on your opponents but I would agree that it is one of the stronger defensive abilities in the game overall.

Aside from that your list is quite incomplete for both sides but writing it all down would take ages.

But you're ALWAYS gonna have ignite applied... it's the first thing you do, so it's gonna be instant all the time unless you're trying to knock someone down immediately when you see them, so that point is kind of invalid.

Please do list the others, it honestly wont take much time. I really wanna know what else there is. It's basically a fact that BW's have more utility.
The whole idea is that BWs have more utility, sorcs have more direct damage, that's not some secret, that's the mindset when they were being balanced. The point is, when damage is so high on both of them, the increased damage sorcs have makes no difference, so when looking at the two classes it comes down to their utility, which BWs have way more than Sorcs.
Like i said, that isnt some disputed opinion, it's literally how the class was made when they were balancing. However, as any WaR fans know, the original developers were a bit naive when doing that.
Arguing that Sorcs have just as much utility as a BW is a moot argument, it's not true. I want someone to try to convince me that just because BW's have more utility sorcs make up for it somehow.


Also, about the infernal gift thing. You're saying every sorc wants to be the star of the show... a sorcs job is to nuke people down as fast as they can, they don't have any other job to do. So giving up a crucial tactic that limits your effectiveness to do said job makes no sense at all. If you're a tank, healer, wp, or dok then yeah you shouldn't try to be "the star player" as you say of your group, you're meant to help others like mdps or rdps kill people. They're not hogging the limelight, they're filling their role.

Cimba
Posts: 376

Re: BWs Vs Sorcs

Post#24 » Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:46 pm

Aside from the ability list there is a much greater problem with your fundamental assumption. Your assumption was BW and Sorc have so much damage that they can drop everyone from 100-0. Thus making the additional damage of the sorc useless since it's not required.
But then if everything dies for what excatly do I need utility? It only matters if you cant kill everything. Turning the question to: Is the additional utility of the BW worth the additional damage the sorc has. Which is a lot more complicated to answer.

**** that the BW has:
-Flashfire
-Increased proc damage tactic
-FFB (Fast ticking channel)
-Funnel Power
-AOE M2


Sorc
-Decent 65f cone aoe abilties (ice spikes & infernal wave), Ice spikes in particular allows you to sustain dark magic without using a cooldown.
-aoe initiative debuff
-gloom of night

I'm sure I missed a few but I'm playing currently and just writing this in the breaks.

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Reesh
Posts: 645

Re: BWs Vs Sorcs

Post#25 » Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:20 pm

neokingdom wrote: But you're ALWAYS gonna have ignite applied... it's the first thing you do, so it's gonna be instant all the time unless you're trying to knock someone down immediately when you see them, so that point is kind of invalid.
Ummm, no. Unless one is running ignition tactic, it's a waste of gcd.
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Arteker616
Posts: 413

Re: BWs Vs Sorcs

Post#26 » Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:16 pm

main adventage bw has over sorc and the more important, sorcs have a realy bad time agaisnt tanks, bws dont , they have very good tactics abilitys to melt tanks wich in sorc is very hard. aswell the adventage of having a sidekick for debuffs in engi .

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: BWs Vs Sorcs

Post#27 » Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:44 pm

Infernal Gift is amazing in good hands.
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spikespiegel84
Posts: 303

Re: BWs Vs Sorcs

Post#28 » Sun Dec 18, 2016 5:31 pm

Mystry wrote:
neokingdom wrote:I dont like feeling like my class isn't as good as the mirror.
Welcome to what every single order class except Bright Wizard feels.

Free LSD up there?
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neokingdom
Posts: 38

Re: BWs Vs Sorcs

Post#29 » Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:46 pm

Reesh wrote:
neokingdom wrote: But you're ALWAYS gonna have ignite applied... it's the first thing you do, so it's gonna be instant all the time unless you're trying to knock someone down immediately when you see them, so that point is kind of invalid.
Ummm, no. Unless one is running ignition tactic, it's a waste of gcd.
i have to disagree, any BW or Sorc unless they're doing aoe, are gonna hit their target with CW or Ignite. And the ignition/cw tactic is too good to pass up in most single target builds. Even then, if you are one of the few who dont use ignite for some reason, you can still apply it on the move, and cast your KD on the move.

neokingdom
Posts: 38

Re: BWs Vs Sorcs

Post#30 » Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:49 pm

peterthepan3 wrote:Infernal Gift is amazing in good hands.
yeah sure, infernal gift has it's uses. Especially in an aoe situation. But when you're running a single target build, which lets face it, most people are now, there are better tactics, that will help you do your job as best you can.

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