[Implementation Feedback] White Lion - Pounce

[kryss]

Spoiler:

I'm amazed by the proposal of linking other abilities to the pet, moreso for a distance check for pounce. There can't be a fair discussion on pounce (and other WL' abilities) if you don't take the pet issues seriously, which you probably haven't since it's been a well known problem since T4 came in. The pet (a CORE feature of the class) disappears randomly, it lags behind, it's not a reliable asset for pulling people with fetch (gap closer). Jesus, some people even stopped playing WL because of that, and you think about pounce. Fix the pet(s), then we can discuss.

This topic is for discussion of Pounce. It is NOT for complaint about any other issues or suggesting that you need X buffed or adjusted before Y can be done - Penril

[Marsares]

This topic is for discussion of Pounce. It is NOT for complaint about any other issues or suggesting that you need X buffed or adjusted before Y can be done - Penril

That is a rather strange argument, as one of your proposals is to attach a class-defining ability to a pet that is inherently broken. Therefore, asking pet issues to be fixed before proposal 2 is even tabled is only logical. How can proposal 2 even be considered a serious option given the state of the pet behaviour?

In the last 5 minutes whilst solo-roaming I had my pet disappear 2 times (once 17 seconds), had my pet run a totally random direction whilst fighting a BO and when I attempted to Fetch a Shaman, he just suddenly turned around when nearly in fetch range (probably because he was going up a hill and pathing went array), and you propose to attach more abilities to our Pet, yet we cannot discuss how broken the pet is?

[kryss]

Spoiler:

I'm amazed by the proposal of linking other abilities to the pet, moreso for a distance check for pounce. There can't be a fair discussion on pounce (and other WL' abilities) if you don't take the pet issues seriously, which you probably haven't since it's been a well known problem since T4 came in. The pet (a CORE feature of the class) disappears randomly, it lags behind, it's not a reliable asset for pulling people with fetch (gap closer). Jesus, some people even stopped playing WL because of that, and you think about pounce. Fix the pet(s), then we can discuss.


This topic is for discussion of Pounce. It is NOT for complaint about any other issues or suggesting that you need X buffed or adjusted before Y can be done - Penril

Boys you are making a huge mistake, please don't be stubborn. As Marsares said, you are proposing to attach pounce to a broken asset of the class. I'm sorry but you are the ones who are not respecting the rules, the ones that relate to logic. And now you can censure this comment as well.

Warning issued - Penril.

[Toldavf]

Spoiler:

Why not do something similar to Shadowstep in WoW for rogues?

Pounce on the target + increase speed by X amount for 4-5 seconds.

Explain WHY. Don't just toss around suggestions unless you have a valid reason for it. - Penril.

That's actually a decent idea the additional speed would compensate for any misplacement in your landing allowing you to put a snare in place.

Honestly i like this more than anything war has suggested. A slight speed buff like 50% for 2 seconds and give the ability it's self a small cool down and it should work fine.

[bwdaWAR]

Prop 1 would mean that Pounce would be not only a gap-closer but a snare ability as well. Perhaps it would be beneficial to add a 5ft min range to Pounce if Prop 1 is implemented so it's not an alternative to Cleave Limb when in melee range? If it's meant to be a gap closer, you have no reason to use it while in melee anyways.

[Theseus]

Prop 1 would mean that Pounce would be not only a gap-closer but a snare ability as well. Perhaps it would be beneficial to add a 5ft min range to Pounce if Prop 1 is implemented so it's not an alternative to Cleave Limb when in melee range? If it's meant to be a gap closer, you have no reason to use it while in melee anyways.

Thats exactly is the reason I proposed that the snare is only 2 sec so while the WL is in mid air.

[wargrimnir]

Prop 1 would mean that Pounce would be not only a gap-closer but a snare ability as well. Perhaps it would be beneficial to add a 5ft min range to Pounce if Prop 1 is implemented so it's not an alternative to Cleave Limb when in melee range? If it's meant to be a gap closer, you have no reason to use it while in melee anyways.

Cleave Limb is a 40% 10s snare, if you're using Pounce as a 30% 5s snare in melee you've simply used the wrong ability for the situation at hand, and burned a cooldown that would be otherwise useful for mobility.

That is a rather strange argument, as one of your proposals is to attach a class-defining ability to a pet that is inherently broken. Therefore, asking pet issues to be fixed before proposal 2 is even tabled is only logical. How can proposal 2 even be considered a serious option given the state of the pet behaviour?

In the last 5 minutes whilst solo-roaming I had my pet disappear 2 times (once 17 seconds), had my pet run a totally random direction whilst fighting a BO and when I attempted to Fetch a Shaman, he just suddenly turned around when nearly in fetch range (probably because he was going up a hill and pathing went array), and you propose to attach more abilities to our Pet, yet we cannot discuss how broken the pet is?

I would argue that having a pet in the first place is far more class defining than a single mastery ability. Asking that pet issues be "fixed" first implies they're terribly broken. I feel that's quite a bit overstated. Pets are more than serviceable for their needed functions. Use the Pet UI attack button to switch it's targets, works well enough.

However, the caveat of using pet-only abilities when using the Loner tactic was included to address the sentiment that pets are unreliable. In your second example, using the Loner tactic would give you access to Pounce, Throat Bite, and Brutal Pounce (if they were taken in your Mastery tree). If you were in Pounce range (same as Fetch range) of the Shaman would be far more useful than sending your pet to harass it while you were dealing with the BO. But again, referring to a 2v1 situation which is outside the scope of this discussion forum.

[kryss]

Wargrimnir, if a pet which disappears for 10-15 sometimes 20 and even 30 seconds is not a broken thing I don't know what it is. We manually control the pet all the time but if there's no pet there can't be anything, especially if the wl is guardian spec

[Kopfmotorrad]

The ability itself is poorly optimized, causing you to land out of range if your target is moving at all. It is also very easy to momentarily justify spamming it, once you land out of range you have the choice either popping Feline's Grace (60s CD 45 AP!) and then Charge (30s CD) to get close enough to snare/CC your target, or save yourself the time and Pounce (30AP) again. While you're using two abilities just to clear off the inevitable CC applied to you, chances are the target you're chasing is running right back into the safety of their allies, making yourself the now-primary target.

Hello Wargrimnir,
in situations where the white lion needs to pounce multiple times on the same target he is either clearly overextending from his group and his guard tank which is a bad decision to begin with, or he is solo and chasing a single enemy trying to run from him.
In the first case: turn back to your group or respectively your new assist target -->This case means there is no need to make pounce any stronger.
In the second case: I believe it has been said multiple times by Developers that RoR is not going to view the game based on 1vs1 situations.

Something with this ability is not working correctly. It's not serving the proper function as a gap closer without requiring it to be spammed as the sole ability until the target runs out of attempts to CC, or the WL runs out of AP. The stigma it causes for non-WL players is that it's a pure cheese ability that is blatantly overpowered, without understanding the nuances.

Some Pounce Nuances as I see them:

Offensive Pounce Nuances:
I would like you to know that the pounce ability enables the white lion to be the fastest assisting melee damage dealer in the whole game. And of course the fastest to switch targets. That makes him a nightmare for all enemies.
Excelling with the white lion means you do not try and arrive before the other damage otherwise there will be guard and heal on your target when the other damage from your group impacts. You can even better feint another target via pounce and then take the second pounce to the actual target your group is focusing.

Defensive Pounce Nuances:
I see the Pounce being used defensively in every scenario and almost every scale of open RvR battle where a white lion is present. Any time a white lion gets too much heat he can just pounce away. There is always some destruction tank in his own lines where he can jump to safety. Most easy getaway ever. All other melee classes have far worse options to pull their neck out of the noose when things get dangerous.

In address to your proposals I would like to draw my own conclusion from the "Pounce Nuances" I hope I explained well enough above.
For the above mentioned reasons, I think that the Pounce ability is way too overpowered and the player should be made to decide when to use it and when to save it for a better moment.
It should definitely have a cooldown of somekind. In favor of the WL, I would even say that 15 seconds is too long. 10 seconds would be a good measure to still be used frequently enough without being spammable and still maintain the option to dive in and out of a skirmish in a matter of 10 seconds. Even with the cooldown the WL would stay the fastest assisting melee in the game.


In explicit response to some of the proposals made in this thread:

No to Pet-Pounce:
The pet is too unreliable and the Pounce plus Fetch would be too strong. White lion fetch is already stronger than the marauder equivalent "Terrible Embrace". Everyone can see the marauders 2 second cast building up while the tendrils extend between both enemies. Interrupts, getting out of range or breaking line of sight is often the case. The white lion pet running towards you however is much harder to get away from because of the insane pet speed and if the pet comes from someone on your left or right and then abruptly turns to pull you, not much of a chance.

No to Pounce plus Snare:
I do not feel that the white lion is a week class in the game who needs to be buffed for some reason.
Even if you give Pounce a cooldown, which is in my opinion fully deserved in the spirit of balance, then there is no case to be made for boosting the lion in the same instance by giving him a 65 feet snare. He has his Moral 1 root for that stuff. (I will make time to post in that balancing thread soon too)

See you all in the lakes,

Treehit / Orbok

[7rere7]

1. I think all WL's should not have to spec any tree to get pounce,its already a given ability.